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what machines do I need to satart a hi-tech printed circuit ... - Jul 27, 2006 by rogerw

Screen printer, placement machine(s) and oven. You may also... - Jul 28, 2006 by

I might suggest a few books first roger, then a tour through... - Jul 28, 2006 by RDR

Lets not forget Chemistries... Pastes, flux, solder, glue, u... - Jul 28, 2006 by nodlac

Do you mean making bare boards or populating bare boards. Y... - Jul 28, 2006 by Stephen

Don't forget about Paste height measurement, conveyors, Aque... - Jul 28, 2006 by razor91

Why in the world would you want to start a Manufacturing fac... - Jul 28, 2006 by

I would agree for a bare board house, are you NUTS? Look wh... - Jul 28, 2006 by ScottM

Your right. Listen our engineers don't come out to the floo... - Jul 28, 2006 by

Hi, It's really weird as I am on this forum with the pers... - Jul 30, 2006 by

Grant- I'm not sure when it gets to the point when egos b... - Jul 30, 2006 by Fastek

Hi, Yes, it seems the case, and it's something I am think... - Jul 30, 2006 by

If you ask me, these were the two issues that contributed th... - Jul 31, 2006 by Fastek

rogerw

#43012

pcb manufacturing | 27 July, 2006

what machines do I need to satart a hi-tech printed circuit board production line with upto 16 layers?

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Chunks

#43025

pcb manufacturing | 28 July, 2006

Screen printer, placement machine(s) and oven. You may also need a hand insertion line, selective solder or wave soldr and some form of electrical test.

There are a ton of name brands that no two people can agree on. To get a better feel for what you want or need on this forum, you should describe you board in detail. How big is your board? What kind of parts, how many parts on each side. Reflow both sides or will you wave solder?

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RDR

#43028

pcb manufacturing | 28 July, 2006

I might suggest a few books first roger, then a tour through a few Fab shops. Very aggressive and admirable goal to go from nothing to 16 layer Mfg. Many old established shops still can't even do that!!!!!

Russ

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nodlac

#43031

pcb manufacturing | 28 July, 2006

Lets not forget Chemistries... Pastes, flux, solder, glue, underfil, Mask.

Someone with manufacturing experience.

Cant forget Soldering irons and rework

oh oh...and an X-ray.

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Stephen

#43032

pcb manufacturing | 28 July, 2006

Do you mean making bare boards or populating bare boards. You post sounds like you mean the first but this forum mainly deals with the second.

And to do either well, you need 10-20 years experience. Or hire someone with said experience.

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razor91

#43040

pcb manufacturing | 28 July, 2006

Don't forget about Paste height measurement, conveyors, Aqueous Cleaner, Selective Solder machine and possibly an Ionic Tester

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Board House

#43052

pcb manufacturing | 28 July, 2006

Why in the world would you want to start a Manufacturing facility, Hopefuly you were not thinkning of the USA.

I would suggest learning to eat once a week, Live at your facility and do not operate with the lights on, This will help in controlling your overhead and lack of profits....

I have been in Board Mfg. for 19 years. There is not much left in profits due to US Compatition for Proto and small volume and Oversea Copatition for everthing else. and don't forget that we all want things cheaper. even though copper, gold and just about every other thing you will need is increasing in cost due to the increase demand for it in China.

I would suggest find a board house that is Public owned and by Stock, it would be cheeper..

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ScottM

#43053

pcb manufacturing | 28 July, 2006

I would agree for a bare board house, are you NUTS? Look what happend to McCurdey's high tech line in S. Cal., go chewed up and spit out by China... Plating, etching, environmental issues, regulations, lack of people who like doing that work... endless. There are too many good houses already that are strugling and their equipment is paid for (read between the lines=lower overhead). What would drive someone to start a new shop up from scratch? Whew...

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Wave Master Larry

#43054

pcb manufacturing | 28 July, 2006

Your right. Listen our engineers don't come out to the floor or even listen when we try to tell them our problems. When they do talk it's all X pplanes or y planes jibber. We got this new asian kid here that thinks flux can cure all our problems. I have to lower all his parameters on my Soltek cause all he thiks about is quality. We need to move the work orders thruu to get things done. So I sometime change the machine settings so it locks up and he can't change anything. Anyway, thats prolly what's wrong at most of your plants as well.

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Grant

#43073

pcb manufacturing | 30 July, 2006

Hi,

It's really weird as I am on this forum with the perspective of a manager, because I run my company, but want to make sure I am as updated as possible so I don't force people into making stupid decisions in our company.

However I don't walk into manufacturing and demand process changes, even thought I am currently the only one who understands the process full, or as fully to the limits of our current knowledge base.

This needs to be a team approach where each member of our manufacturing plant is respected for the knowledge they have. If they don't have any knowledge and are stupid, then we get rid of them.

But I don't understand the approach where people are in conflict with each other on the shop floor, and that's so destructive, it's little wonder a lot of plants relocate. Labor is not that high in a production plant, and a lot of products can me manufactured in a western country.

I personally think a lot of the problem is the waste generated when people don't work together. There is nothing more exciting than a small team of people working tightly together. When some of these people are engineers, it's really exciting because of the knowledge each member can bring together.

Is this kind of shop floor conflict common? How have some people sorted it out?

Perhaps we have not seen these issues because we only have about 10 people in our manufacturing area, plus a few engineers who interact with these guys. It might be because we are small that we have not seen the issue.

But we are nothing special, and I am sure the managers of your plants think everything is ok, so I think its' something I am interested in, so we understand the nature of how these problems arise, and can stop it happening.

Grant

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Fastek

#43075

pcb manufacturing | 30 July, 2006

Grant-

I'm not sure when it gets to the point when egos begin to over-ride productivity but at some point it does.

I remember working at a large OEM builder of NIC cards back in the early 90's. We had a line manager for each line per shift, (5 lines),plus a manager to manage all the production managers etc.

These guys were always stepping over themselves competing with each other. The thing was there were less than 10 people per line from front to back so the need to have a manager on each line was completely unnecessary.

Although the company was basically printing money, the turmoil and pressure that oozed from the floor due to these bozos was a big factor in its ultimate demise.

Keep management to a minimum was the lesson learned there.

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Grant

#43076

pcb manufacturing | 30 July, 2006

Hi,

Yes, it seems the case, and it's something I am thinking about all the time. I am sure the guys who ran your company thought it was doing ok at the time, and I think it's a lot easer for things to go wrong than you imagine, but at the top it's hard to see things wrong, so it goes unfixed.

It's something we always talk about in house. I think it's common to put yourself above others who have done a bad job, without realizing why they did a bad job, you might also be screwing things up but not noticing it.

Thanks for the story, and I think if I can learn as much as possible from other peoples mistakes, as well as my own, then in the end we should have something that stays working ok.

Grant

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Fastek

#43078

pcb manufacturing | 31 July, 2006

If you ask me, these were the two issues that contributed the most to the decline in PCB Assembly Manufacturing in the US...for that matter the electronics industry in general.

1) The obsession of management to please shareholders which was driven foremost by pressure from financial analysts....who became ridiculously powerful for some strange reason in the 90's.

2) Short-sighted business models due in part to the above.

In other words.......the US got greedy and by obsessing on their company's stock price, lost sight of how to build powerful and LONG LASTING industries....like the one we are in.

Too bad as well because as you mentioned, labor isn't that big of a cost impact on this industry.....yet it still moved off-shore.

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