Recomendations? Fuji CP7 or Univ HSP4797?

Hi,

Thanks for the info, and were the cost of running very high? Do they take long to change over products?

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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Hi Grant, change over and set up times for the CP's depend on a few things. For one, if you have enough feeders you can have the feeders reeled up ready to go on the machine. The change over will be very quick.

If you are lucky enough to only have a few products you could have a permanent set table, all products on the machine without the need to change over.

Or you could have table one set up for one product and table two set up for another product. This means while one product is running the operators can be setting up the other table without stopping the machine.

Or again both tables set up for the same product. When one table runs out of a part the CP kicks out the table for part change and the other table comes into play. This means in theory that the machine will never stop running.

Hope I explained this ok.

Cheers, Alan.

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Hi,

That's the interesting point, and I think it's got to do with the design of the placement. You have 8 pick heads in the Hydra head, and they all line up with a tape in the feeder.

So in theory when it can pick all 8 components at once, and then place them onto the PCB, it's running fastest. However when you look at the optimization software for setting up for fastest placement, you need almost twice the number of feeders as component types used on the product, because you need to repeat similar components so the Hydra can pick all components at once, and run at best speed.

The Hydra only runs fast when it can pick all 8 nozzles at once, and if it has to pick twice or more, it's quite a lot slower.

The problem is we only have enough feeders for the component types on the product, so we cannot load multi reels of the same component type, and the extra feeders are costly. It's an expensive way to get the rates speed.

Also, you have travel time from the feeder to the PCB and back. So the whole process is quite inefficient when you see it running.

Also even the latest model Agilis feeders, while a large speed improvement over the older Agilis feeders, are still quite slow when compared to a Fuji or Universal feeder speed. Also, they only feed one at a time, so when the Hydra does a multi pick it has to wait for all the feeders to sequentially feed.

I was visiting a facility, and they had Siemens placers with a line of pick heads, and while they were a lot faster, they still suffered from wasted time while picking components and moving between the feeders and the PCB.

This is why I am thinking about turret based machines. Although they are more expensive, they are a much more efficient way to place parts because the picking and placing is happening at the same time, and the parts are piplined through the turret.

Although all machines will run well under the rated speed on a real world product, I am thinking they will come closer to matching the published speed, because they would be a more efficient, and easer for software to optimize the load process for best place speeds.

I could get more MYDATA machines, however I would still need to have lots of extra feeders over the multiple machines to allow placement of the parts. This extra feeder cost is quite high, and starts to eliminate the difference in price. So this is why I am currently looking at either a Universal or Fuji turret based placer as options for increasing the speed of our line.

I would be interested in peoples comments on my line of thought here!

Regards,

Grant

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Hello Alan! We have used both chipshooters, we also have a Mydata with the hydra head... We switched entirely from Fuji CP7 to the UIC HSP4796 and now HSP4797.

The CP7 is a nice machine but we were very unhappy with the support structure within Fuji and we were constantly repairing or replacing feeders and nozzles.

The UIC HSP4797 is the fastest chipshooter I have ever seen. The linear motor technology in the feeder carriage is what sets the two machines apart. The feeders do not require constant maintenance to keep your PPM levels acceptable and the nozzles rarely break.

The truth is, either of these 2 machines will reach the cycle time you are looking for, but this is definitely not a process fit the Mydata machine. What it comes down to is which machine requires the least maintenance and which company will offer you the best support of their products. That answer is simple... UIC.

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Guys I've been following your threads for a bit here. I have to say that the Universal machine is as robust and probably better than the Fuji. I too have been in this business for about 20 years and have had considerable experience on both. The plant I currently work for literally kicked Fuji out due to machine performance, but mostly for SUPPORT or rather lack of SUPPORT. As stated in previous thread if you maintain the Fuji and cal it regularly you should be ok. Here is the kicker........ as we all know we can run 24/7 for months at a time with zero time for PM and cal. This where Universal shined and Fuji failed. This is my opinion but it reflects the reality I have seen.

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Don't discount some of the other Ex Fuji engineers. I was Senior to the Service engineers that went to SMT. I Trained many of them before they went into the field and I am less expensive on service. (ATS-SMT.com)

This message was posted the Electronics Forum @

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Hi,

Thanks for the feedback in your experiences, and I am heading up to a show next week, and will get a chance to check it out!

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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Do you have the Fuji Flexa sofware ? Can you post it to me? I am a Chineseman who wanto become a maintenance engineer of Fuji smt . my emial :2003weizhong@sina.com

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I have worked with them both, operations, maintenance, and programming and I will tell you that the Fuji will out perform UIC anytime.

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Hi,

Yes, it was fun reading this thread again. We initially upgraded our MY9 to a MY12 with line scan camera, but it was still too slow. We considered getting a second MYDATA, but decided to go with some FuJi XP 142, and 242 machines, with a second XP 142 later to speed up the line.

Some of our products have a lot of parts, and the MYDATA needs to many repeated parts to optimize for the HYDRA. We are going to sell the MYDATA early May once the change over has happened. We just don't need the flexibility of the MYDATA any longer, and are more focused on higher volume, while retaining fast changeover.

The new machines have not arrived yet, and it will be interesting to see how they go. We decided on them because they have lots of feeders, are fairly fast, Fuji has a good reputation, and the feeders are compatible with the other Fuji models, so we can pick up extra feeders cheaper.

I did consider the CP 7 or 8, but it was too expensive and complex for what we need, and I thought two XP 142's should be similar. I checked out some factories in Taiwan, and saw both kinds of lines, and XP seemed better for us.

Regards,

Grant

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