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Solder wave shutdown

Solder wave shutdown

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My boss posed me an interesting question: would it save ener... - May 17, 2007 by floydf

The heat you are putting into it is replacing heat it loses.... - May 17, 2007 by Stephen

Your cost savings will be minimal over-all, depending on how... - May 17, 2007 by Real Chunks

Are you saying that leaving it on for the night saves more t... - May 17, 2007 by Stephen

Nope, not at all. Uh-uh, no did not say that. Just had a... - May 17, 2007 by Real Chunks

Gotcha, our power outages are usually not so considerate. T... - May 17, 2007 by Stephen

Hi, We did this last year and winded up having to replace... - May 18, 2007 by aj

The energy used to remelt the pot is less than the engery re... - May 18, 2007 by Stephen

SOunds we need our version of Myth Busters. ... - May 18, 2007 by Real Chunks

Or simple logic. 1. You are only replacing the heat that is... - May 18, 2007 by Stephen

2 more statement that need consideration in the logic: 3.... - May 21, 2007 by Loco

We also keep our pot just below the liquidous state over nig... - May 22, 2007 by FD

You havn't compared bills. What makes you guys think you ... - May 22, 2007 by Stephen

No, we haven't compared bills because we rarely let it cool ... - May 22, 2007 by FD

If the biggest waste concern your company has is the power l... - May 23, 2007 by PR

We have a timer on our selective solder so it's molten when ... - May 23, 2007 by Stephen

dat funny, pr U PHAT ... - May 23, 2007 by Peter Gibbons

The answer is simple...kind of. The short answer in terms of... - May 24, 2007 by mfgengr

Mf Eng, I am impressed! A real Engineer, quoting from his... - May 24, 2007 by Dirk Nuendyke

CK You keep forgetting to factor in time. The "lots of juic... - May 24, 2007 by Stephen

Just to clarify: I'd say that it will potentially save money... - May 24, 2007 by mfgengr

So Stephen, I don't know what part of the country you're ... - May 24, 2007 by Dirk Nuendyke

it'll be cheaper if you'll let your wave machine up all nigh... - May 26, 2007 by crashoveride

Crashoveride, That idea is similar to the analogy I came ... - May 29, 2007 by Dirk Nuendyke

... - May 29, 2007 by Stephen

The teacher at DeVry gave cred for ac circuitclass though I ... - May 29, 2007 by Peter Gibbons

Wow, I surfed this guy's homepage, and he seems like a compl... - May 31, 2007 by Samir Nagheenanajar

Listen, why are you guys comparing air conditioning to wave ... - May 31, 2007 by WaveMasterLarry

WOW!! looks like I have made all the wrong decisions in my l... - Jun 04, 2007 by RDR

Sorry to hear that RDR. Although, I thought the statement w... - Jun 04, 2007 by Hussman

Ours was accidendally left on overnight many years ago. Raze... - Jun 04, 2007 by Darby

Did Einstein look smart? Or more like a town fool. It isn... - Jun 05, 2007 by Lozie

I think the point the others are missing is that the solder ... - Jun 05, 2007 by Stephen

What? When and where did this happen? What company?!?! Yo... - Jun 05, 2007 by WaveMasterLarry

Einstien was a wave solder guru? Lozie - if you keep you ... - Jun 05, 2007 by WaveMasterLarry

Hi Stephen, So are you guys talking from a facilities sta... - Jun 05, 2007 by Real Chunks

No. It was CK who brought up AC at his home and erroneously... - Jun 05, 2007 by Stephen

Are we not talking about down-time, when the time operators ... - Jun 06, 2007 by Lozie

Ok smartbutt, you can play evil guru all you want, but you c... - Jun 06, 2007 by WaveMasterLarry

Good calculation, i have to say. Do you forgot, If you le... - Jun 06, 2007 by Lozie

WML, You write �= a total of 280 minutes an hour� Where ... - Jun 06, 2007 by Patrick Bruneel

LOL! You got me there PAt! Good one, I must be spending to... - Jun 06, 2007 by WaveMasterLarry

WML, I won't dispute math but I will definitely point out ei... - Jun 06, 2007 by chrisw

Thank you ChrisW. I agree completely. The decision to idle t... - Jun 07, 2007 by mfgengr

Well put, MfgEng! Wave Solder did get lots of respect back ... - Jun 07, 2007 by Dirk Nuendyke

Please, it does not matter the school from which it is you c... - Jun 07, 2007 by Dr Shocker

Fire, January 1987, Gladesville, GME, Didn't, Did, No, Sort ... - Jun 07, 2007 by Darby

We do have the video of you with your pants on fire.... ... - Jun 08, 2007 by Hussman

Darby, you sure you didn't mean "liar, liar, PLANT'S on fire... - Jun 08, 2007 by chrisw

Verbal history says it was the wave. Written history says it... - Jun 11, 2007 by Darby

So, does turning off your glue gun at nite save energy or sh... - Jun 12, 2007 by Hussman

Huss, Great conclusion to what I believe to be a record t... - Jun 12, 2007 by Patrick Bruneel

"In your example, you are comparing "Energy used to heat the... - Jun 12, 2007 by Steve Thomas

You'll need to calibrate your effectiveness to the deliverab... - Jun 12, 2007 by Real Chunks

Chunks, So in layman�s terms you are saying shut the darn... - Jun 12, 2007 by Patrick Bruneel

Turn off your solder pot and let your glue gun keep it warm.... - Jun 14, 2007 by Real Chunks

With the added bonus that the glue from the gluegun will for... - Jun 15, 2007 by Loco

You will incure costs to warm it up agin. I think thats wha... - Jul 25, 2008 by WaveMasterLarry

And i drive a Honnda now A CRV. Not sure what it stands fo... - Jul 25, 2008 by WaveMasterLarry

Solder wave shutdown | 17 May, 2007

My boss posed me an interesting question: would it save energy to leave the wave solder machine on all night instead of turning it off each night? We run 1 shift, and have timers on our machines. My instinct is that it would be cheaper to turn off the pot every night.

Solder wave shutdown | 17 May, 2007

The heat you are putting into it is replacing heat it loses. The greater the delta T the greater the heat loss. You lose less heat if the pot is cold. Yes you need to use more heat at the start of the day but it is less than the heat needed to keep it hot all night.

Solder wave shutdown | 17 May, 2007

Your cost savings will be minimal over-all, depending on how many shifts you run. You cost saving will be zero if you use the timer on your machine. If the power goes out for a couple of hour during the night, your pot will be cold the next morning.

Solder wave shutdown | 17 May, 2007

Are you saying that leaving it on for the night saves more than turning it off?

Solder wave shutdown | 17 May, 2007

Nope, not at all. Uh-uh, no did not say that.

Just had a lot of power outages here at nite that mess with the timing if you use the timer.

Solder wave shutdown | 17 May, 2007

Gotcha, our power outages are usually not so considerate. They usually occur when we are in full production or I have an urgent email to send out or both.

Solder wave shutdown | 18 May, 2007

Hi,

We did this last year and winded up having to replace one of the contactors due to the frequency of up/down,up/down.

Not sure what implications the constant on/off would have on the alloy after a while/ dross etc.

When your pot starts up that is when you are consuming the most power as opposed to the pot sitting Idle over night.

I would advise you to leave well enough alone unless you can prove huge cost savings - tell your boss to look elsewhere to save a few pound.

aj...

Solder wave shutdown | 18 May, 2007

The energy used to remelt the pot is less than the engery required to keep it molten all night.

Solder wave shutdown | 18 May, 2007

SOunds we need our version of Myth Busters.

Solder wave shutdown | 18 May, 2007

Or simple logic. 1. You are only replacing the heat that is lost. (once the solder has been melted one time). 2. The hotter the pot the faster you lose heat.

Are either of those statements not true?

Don't forget if you are talking about power then you also have to talk about time to get the engery.

If you want to check you can put a digital amp clamp with a recorder on the power line for your wave. I'm sure there are some that can tell you energy useage per day.

Solder wave shutdown | 21 May, 2007

2 more statement that need consideration in the logic:

3. heating up solid solder consumes more energy than heating up molten solder. 4. keeping solid solder at a constant temperature consumes less energy then molten solder.

Result: We keep our pot just below the melting point at night.

Solder wave shutdown | 22 May, 2007

We also keep our pot just below the liquidous state over night. It takes a lot less time to get it to temp than a cold pot and we aren't creating dross over night.

If you have been shutting down over night for some time, then you can get an average electric bill from previous months and then change to keeping it on over night and compare the actual (or average) costs.

Solder wave shutdown | 22 May, 2007

You havn't compared bills.

What makes you guys think you need more heat to remelt solder than it gave off solidifing?

And don't confuse power and energy. Yes it takes more power to melt solder but for a shorter time.

Where do you think the break even point would be? I hope you agree if we were talking about a year then it would take more energy to keep a pot molten than to let it cool for the year and reheat it.

Solder wave shutdown | 22 May, 2007

No, we haven't compared bills because we rarely let it cool completely down over night.

I would think that the cost needed maintaining 200C over night versus 310C over night would be about the same, but a little less.

But going from 25C up to 310C versus 200C up to 310C versus maintaining 310C overnight, which will cost more $$$ in the long run? It would be an interesting study to read.

You will also have to factor in the amount of production time ($$$) lost waiting for the pot. To reheat from 25C is certainly a lot longer than waiting for it to reheat from 200C. Although maintaining the running temp overnight allows you to run first thing in the morning, so no down time.

Overnight = 12-15 hours of dross creation, so why not cut that off by setting it to 200 and solidify the pot? Solid solder doesn't create dross. In a 24hr period, the machine is not used for a majority of the time. Plus (in a year) you factor in weekends and holidays, do you power off or keep it hot (or warm)?

And our safety guru worries about someone in the night cleaning crew (or burglar?) dipping their hand in a molten pot of solder when noone is around. At 200C, they may get burned, but they won't be able to dip their body part(s) in the solder bath.

So isn't keeping it warm (just under liquidous) a happy medium?

Solder wave shutdown | 23 May, 2007

If the biggest waste concern your company has is the power loss for that wave........ya'll are doing good! Why not take it even further and plan your jobs ahead and only run the wave 3-4 days a week and leave the pot down the rest of the time? That would REALLY put you in good graces with the bean counters.

Solder wave shutdown | 23 May, 2007

We have a timer on our selective solder so it's molten when we come in. The heat it takes to remelt the solder is equal to the heat lost as it solidifies therefore don't worry that it takes more energy per minute to melt the solder than to keep it molten. You are only replacing lost heat. The more heat lost the more there is to replace. Overall it takes more energy to keep it molten than to let it cool off and then remelt it.

Solder wave shutdown | 23 May, 2007

dat funny, pr

U PHAT

Solder wave shutdown | 24 May, 2007

The answer is simple...kind of. The short answer in terms of total cost (if you don't run an air conditioner) is there is no difference.

The technical answer is: The First Law of Thermodynamics - Conservation of Energy applies. You have an entire system to consider, an while you're paying for all of the energy put into the pot to heat it, you do not benefit from any of the heat that is shed by the pot into the outside environment. The "system" includes the hot solder pot, the building it sits in at its ambient temperature, and the ducting going out of the building to the outside. That power used to heat the pot to any level, is leaking out into the building environment and up the stack to outside the building. Now consider the scenario where you maintain a temperature - say 200C, just below liquidus as mentioned in an earlier post, you are paying for, but not benefiting from heat energy that continues to leak into the building and goes out the stack. In fact, you probably will be paying more to counter heat energy that leaks from the pot into the building with higher A/C costs. The cost equation may shft slightly if you factor in convenience (time to melt), and dross production (waste), but to state that it's actually cheaper in terms of the power costs to keep the power on 24 hours, even with the pot set to just below melt point is not accurate. Assuming the cost of electricity is the same all day, turning the machine off, whenever you can, and switching it on to melt the solder is ALWAYS less expensive in terms of the power bill, than maintaining it at ANY heated temperature throughout the day and overnight. This is because the heat stops "leaking" from the pot when its temperature reaches equilibirium with its surrounding environment. The caveat is if power is cheaper at night, which is the case in some regions, it might be cheaper to keep the pot turned on, but the amount of energy used will always be greater compared to turning it off at night. In summary, with power costs constant throughout the day, it is always less expensive to turn the pot off. With all that said, I think waves consume about 18kw when they're running. Your savings would be calculated by multiplying the time turned off (in hours) times 18kw times the price you are charged for a kw-Hr. At $.08/kw-hr over 8 hours, we're talking about eleven and a half bucks...and when you consider that power used at start up is almost twice that (for the first two hours) it's probably a wash. Tell your manager to go check the paperclip inventory, there's probably more potential savings there.

Solder wave shutdown | 24 May, 2007

Mf Eng,

I am impressed! A real Engineer, quoting from his sophomore year Thermodynamics class, "energy is neither created nor destroyed." I believe that's the 1st Law?

I agree with you on your points, 'cause it'd be my guess that if the pot is left constantly on, the wattage or current drawn by the heater elements, once it's reached its setpoint is not as great as say - a cold pot where'd you'd have to actually use lots of juice to get it back up to temp. Kinda like your A/C at home....rule-of-thumb is leave it within 5 degrees or so of your desired setpoint when you're not at home, 'cause if you turn it off during the day, you'll use much more electricity trying to cool your house down. That's where those programmable "smart" thermostats come in...

Hey - how's this for an invention?? A smart thermostat for your solder pot!!

Solder wave shutdown | 24 May, 2007

CK You keep forgetting to factor in time. The "lots of juice" is say 3 times as much but it's for 1/5 as long. And you are wrong about the AC part as well.

Do you also believe that warm water freezes faster than cold water? I saw that presented on TV as strange but true.

Solder wave shutdown | 24 May, 2007

Just to clarify: I'd say that it will potentially save money by turning the wave off at night, but the savings are minimal. But...If your power rates are cheaper during off peak hours (at night) like some power companies offer, it may save you money to keep the pot powered up. Offsetting costs resulting from keeping the pot on are running the AC extra to counter heat loss from the pot, and extra dross production.

It is my opinion that unless your machine utilization is over 70%, it is better to turn the pot off when you're not using it, for safety (a solder pot with frozen solder can't spring a leak in the middle of the night), dross production (with solder at $5-$12/lb), and machine wear and tear reasons.

Solder wave shutdown | 24 May, 2007

So Stephen,

I don't know what part of the country you're from, but during summer time, what DO you do with your air conditioning at home?

"Your wrong" is a very general statement, without a "right" statement to counterpoint my wrong statement. Honestly, I just grabbed the "5 degrees" out of the air. Personally, when I'm not home I leave the t-stat set at 80 F and 76 when I am home...is this wrong??

Now, about forgetting the "time factor" with heating up the solder pot, I do agree with you there.

Solder wave shutdown | 26 May, 2007

it'll be cheaper if you'll let your wave machine up all night and let it in its idle temp (supposed to be 200��C) simply because it will need less power from idle temp up to operational temp compared to from 0�C-operational temp. Temperature Sensors (aka thermocouple) are plugged in, remember? this will keep the heater to turn on/off on little time, less energy, and most efficient.

Solder wave shutdown | 29 May, 2007

Crashoveride,

That idea is similar to the analogy I came up with, with regards to a programmable thermostat and home air conditioning. (ie leave your point within a few degrees of desired point)

STEPPHEN - aka, Man-of-the-World, all-knowing, Super Duper Engineer guy, master of Thermodynamics - disagreed with my analogy.

Solder wave shutdown | 29 May, 2007

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/cooling.html this page has it right about minimizing AC energy use.

With the wave, look at two machines. One you turn off, the other you let idle. The one that is turned off is using no power. The other one is using power after it reaches it's idling temperature.

At the time to power them up the one that was off will use more power.

The times are different so we have to talk energy. The machine that is off will use more energy to get back up to temperature. The question now becomes is this more or less than the idling one used while the first one was off. The answer is it's less. The idling machine uses more energy to idle than the off machine uses extra to reheat.

Think about if we were talking about a year. will you still say idling the machine will use less energy overall?

And if the time is too short the solder won't solidify.

Oh and I drive a Hyundai, and I listen to the radio even though I know the car burns more gas by my doing so.

Solder wave shutdown | 29 May, 2007

The teacher at DeVry gave cred for ac circuitclass though I never show up.

Samir Nagheenanajar

Solder wave shutdown | 31 May, 2007

Wow, I surfed this guy's homepage, and he seems like a complete imbicile: http://michaelbluejay.com/

He'd be the type of guy (with ZERO credentials - he's either a OUT, or has a couple semesters at Austin Comunity College) that you'd see touting the latest hair growth products on late night informercials, or something stupid, like "How to Keep your Dog Busy ." ...I saw one of his tips: "How Women can get away With Peeing While Standing Up."

Hard to believe anyone would take this guy's advice on electricity and thermodynamics. I mean c'mon! Look at him!

But then you have the stupid masses of people that buy into his crap....

WaveMasterLarry

Solder wave shutdown | 31 May, 2007

Listen, why are you guys comparing air conditioning to wave soldering? There is no way your house will get that warm, unless it catches fire - I would know cause i smoke in bed way too much. Anyway, my two soltecs run 16 hours a day. on 3rd shift they sit idle. When we turned them off it would take about 3 hours for them to warm back up. if we let them idle, the pots heaters turn on about every 2 minuntes for about 60 seconds. When we turn our pots down at night they remain off for about two hours. ZSo you have 6 hours left to rewarm them before 1st shift needs to use them and start wave solder. So this warm up is from cold start is 3 hours, but only about one hour for a warm pot. So on the pot that was off, you have your heaters on constantly. Ohms law says you have heaters - which are resistors, so when you apply the voltage they draw a certain current. Sif the voltage is fixed, and resistance is fixed, the current will be fixed. Cold pots will draw this current for 3 hours while my warm pot draw current for 1 hour. So that's a two hour window we have to look at. now if my warmed wave is on for 60 seconds and off for 2 minutes, that means its on for 20 minutes an hour. so for 2 hours it's on for 40 minutes. now my cold pot is ON for these two hours. so over all a cold pot just wasted me 1 hour and 20 minutes of power.

I ride a Huffy. thats how i roll. My Hyundi doesn't get really good gas milage with the radio on or off. Who the heck is this Bluejay guy you people think is so smart? Looks like a nut to me... http://michaelbluejay.com/photos/#

Solder wave shutdown | 4 June, 2007

WOW!! looks like I have made all the wrong decisions in my life. I have owned a Harley and a currently own a Vette! Guess where I got an associates degree from? yep Devry.

Never knew I was so stupid and nonqualified for this forum!

Thanks everyone!

R

Solder wave shutdown | 4 June, 2007

Sorry to hear that RDR. Although, I thought the statement was "drive" a Harley (not own), which I find funny. Also sorry to hear about the Vette too. Should we make it a rule that the guy with the biggest spoiler is right? Then we can make a movie about it - Too Fast, Too Furious, Too Right.

Plus, I always thought being qualified for this forum would be an insult?!?!?

Also, do we really care where people went to school? OK, I got kicked out of St. Mary's Catholic grade school for causing too much trouble. Guess I was too fast or too furious before it was too cool to do so!

Solder wave shutdown | 4 June, 2007

Ours was accidendally left on overnight many years ago. Razed the factory to the ground. No facts - just a hunch- turn it off.

Solder wave shutdown | 5 June, 2007

Did Einstein look smart? Or more like a town fool.

It isn't that hard to calculate, just calculate the big things that matter.

1. The energy you need => the temperature difference between solder and room temperature, So if you let the solder cool down, you need less energy then holding it on temperature + heating a bit up. 2. If you let the solder get to solid, you don't have oxidation. 3. If you let the solder cool down, you have less heating up of you production room, (less energy for the AC) 4. If the solder is solid, you can turn off the exaust, (no energy for this)

Why discussing about this.

Solder wave shutdown | 5 June, 2007

I think the point the others are missing is that the solder gives off the exact amount of heat required to melt it when it goes solid. That is the heat it gives off when going solid equals the heat it takes to melt it. And while the solidifying solder is loseing heat the idling wave is replaceing that much heat and more.

WaveMasterLarry

Solder wave shutdown | 5 June, 2007

What? When and where did this happen? What company?!?! You could sue the wave manufacturer or didn't your company have insurance? Sounds like a shady operation to me or just a tall tale.

WaveMasterLarry

Solder wave shutdown | 5 June, 2007

Einstien was a wave solder guru?

Lozie - if you keep you solder pot cold, how do you solder parts?

Solder wave shutdown | 5 June, 2007

Hi Stephen,

So are you guys talking from a facilities standpoint that a cold solder pot saves enery on your AC?

If so, Corvettes are cool as long as you drive with a popped collar.

WML riding a Huffy = LOL!

Solder wave shutdown | 5 June, 2007

No. It was CK who brought up AC at his home and erroneously said that having your AC on a lower setting used less power than having it turned off when you are not there.

I'm saying with AC at home turn it off when you are not there and have it come on a half hour before you come home. That uses less energy.

Leaving your solder pot off over night uses less engery than having it idle.

The heat it gives off is equal to the heat required to heat it up and melt the solder. If you leave it idle it will replace all the heat lost which is more than if you turn it off which is more than enough to heat it up and melt the solder.

If you turn one off and leave one on. When the one you turned off is cold, the other one has already used enough energy to heat and melt the solder, because it's been replacing the heat as it's lost.

Solder wave shutdown | 6 June, 2007

Are we not talking about down-time, when the time operators are not there,if, you, "wavemasterlarry" run 3 shifts, you don't need to answer these questions right?

or do you, larry, solder yourselve when your colleagues sleep.

Only thing I want to say, You need less energy when you let the wave cool down. Do you have a other opinion Larry?

WaveMasterLarry

Solder wave shutdown | 6 June, 2007

Ok smartbutt, you can play evil guru all you want, but you cant dispute math which is a constant thing even on your side of the planet - which you think is the smartest. Letdo the math shall we? Even you have to turn your pot on to solder. You have admitted this so you are one more step closer to being stupid like the rest of us. Now my solder pot takes 3 hours to go from solid to liguid. thats 3 hours of 100% energy used to warm it up. My heaters turn on constantly for 3 hour. Do you agree? Then after it warms up they turn on for one minute and are off for about 2 minutes. So over an 8 hour period my heaters are on for 3 hours or 180 minutes and then idle on and off at 20 minutes an hour = a total of 280 minutes an hour.

Now if I leave this pot on and let it idle over 8 hours, it's on one minute and off 2 minutes or on 20 minutes an hour. Over a 8 hour period the heaters are on 160 minutes.

Now over hear on the dumm side of the planet 280 minuts is biggerthan 160 minutes. Even your hero Mr. Bluebird would agree to this numbers.

Solder wave shutdown | 6 June, 2007

Good calculation, i have to say.

Do you forgot, If you let the machine cool down during night, the rest-temperature isn't roomtemperature? right, dont you think the temperature will be something about 140�C ??? heating up time then is not 3 hours. more like 110 minutes.

+ during heating up, the power even isn't 100%, on our part of the world the power during heating up is switching between the 3 fases. Is something like 75%.

OK, because you say you are the master in wave, I'll say you are right, and I'm wrong.

Patrick Bruneel

Solder wave shutdown | 6 June, 2007

WML,

You write �= a total of 280 minutes an hour� Where on this planet do you live I�ll move over there right away I could live 4.6 times longer.

WaveMasterLarry

Solder wave shutdown | 6 June, 2007

LOL! You got me there PAt! Good one, I must be spending too much time over the fluxer unit. I meant 280 minutes a eight hour period.

Why in thehell would you wanna live that much longer? Maybe Im too just old and grumpy too under stand.

Solder wave shutdown | 6 June, 2007

WML, I won't dispute math but I will definitely point out either bad math or a missed target. In your example, you are comparing "Energy used to heat the solder and keep it warm" versus "Energy used to keep the solder warm" and fully discount the fact that the machine was ever turned off. In your case of working 2 shifts with 8 hours of downtime (using your numbers), you will consume 140 minutes worth of power to keep the solder warm for the first 7 hours plus 60 minutes worth of power to heat the solder from solid to a liguid state for a total of 200 minutes worth of power. (You still have to input additional energy to fully melt the solder.)

In the case you turn the machines off and then reheat them, you will use 180 minutes worth of power total to heat the solder so you can see that money is saved by turning the wave solder machine off. This does not include any other factors previously mentioned such as the differential in the extra A/C needed, oxidation, wear and tear on the equipment and blower motor, etc. (It also doesn't include paying someone to come in 3 hours early or the light bill for those 3 hours.)

Using your numbers and reasoning, the breakeven point is 7 hours where the total energy to heat the solder from room temp or the energy to keep it warm for 6 hours and then heat it to a liquidus state would be 180 minutes worth of power in either case.

Back to the original posting where I believe they only ran the equipment for one shift, it is DEFINITELY more cost effective to turn the equipment off when you leave for the night.

Solder wave shutdown | 7 June, 2007

Thank you ChrisW. I agree completely. The decision to idle the temperature or turn the wave off is primarily a function of machine utilization. Period. The utilization % break even point for idle vs. turning the heat off is calculated by comparing the energy usage during idle plus the energy to get the temp up to molten solder compared to the energy to go from (room) temp (or whatever level the temp drops to) after being turned off overnight to molten temp. That calculation will vary depending on the machine, and is a function of parameters like: thermal mass of the pot, ambient temp, and heater efficiency, among others. It should be obvious that the less you utilize your wave, the more sense it makes to turn the heat off completely. To illustrate - picture the (admittedly ridiculous) extreme of running one day per year, and off 364 days per year. Obviously it's less costly to shut everything off compared to idling...And to you guys with two year degrees from DeVry, please, that's really not anything to brag about. Some of your comments might cause the school to lose whatever accreditations it might still have. Believe it or not, there once was a time when companies put their best engineers on the wave solder machine.;)

Solder wave shutdown | 7 June, 2007

Well put, MfgEng! Wave Solder did get lots of respect back in the day. It's a very scientifically-based process requiring knowledge of Thermodynamics, Physics, Chemistry, and Metallurgy, but at the same time, it's a very touchy-feely art form! At one time they DID put the good Engineers on Wave.

Solder wave shutdown | 7 June, 2007

Please, it does not matter the school from which it is you came, but what you learned from it that counts. It is simple mathematics my friends. Lets make things simple, shall we not? E=I/R..... this we all should know. We can use this to measure current. But, A shunt can also be used to measure current. In this case a resistor of accurately-known resistance, the shunt, is placed in series so that all the current to be measured will flow through it. Since the resistance is known my friends, by measuring the voltage drop across it, one can calculate the current flowing. Now my friends, in order not to disrupt the circuit, the resistance of the shunt is normally very small. Shunts are rated by maximum current and voltage drop at that current, for example, a 500 A/50 mV shunt would have a maximum allowable current of 500 amps and at that current the voltage drop would be 50 millivolts. By Ala�s design, most shunts are designed to drop 50 mV when operating at their full rated current and most "ammeters" are actually designed as voltmeters that reach full-scale deflection at 50 mV. If the current being measured is also at a high voltage potential this voltage will be present in the enclosure containing the reading instrument. Sometimes the shunt is inserted in the return leg (low voltage side) to avoid this problem. Another solution is to use a Hall effect (non-contact) current sensor instead of a shunt. But for this case we will use the Shunt. Heat loss is a factor that must be taken into affect. It�s total loss will accommodate for a certain percentage of energy lost. This loss of Heat can be calculated in Watts. All the venting and AC inside the building will have a direct affect on your wave and how it operates. Although it might seem very small and slight, we can easily calculate this as Overhead and make things easy, do we agree my friends? The way your pot is insulated will also have a direct impact on the energy you use. The rate at which it loses heat can be calculated thru a variety of means my people, so let consider this as a rate of cooling. So now we have a variety of variable and simply need to identify how they work together. Identifying them is easy. We have S=Shunt, E=Energy, H=Heat, W=Watts, A=Amps, R=Resistance, O=Overhead and C=Cooling. Agree? OK lets go� E=A/R, O is a direct correlation to C and H is a measure of W. Or we have S=(E=A/R)+O=C/(H&W). After a few taps of your calculator this comes out to......... WHO=CARES. So you see my friends, this is all you need to know.

Solder wave shutdown | 7 June, 2007

Fire, January 1987, Gladesville, GME, Didn't, Did, No, Sort of. Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Solder wave shutdown | 8 June, 2007

We do have the video of you with your pants on fire....

Solder wave shutdown | 8 June, 2007

Darby, you sure you didn't mean "liar, liar, PLANT'S on fire?"

Solder wave shutdown | 11 June, 2007

Verbal history says it was the wave. Written history says it was a glue gun plugged into 24hr power and left on. Destroyed the top floor of the then 3 year old factory. "PLANT'S on fire" -good one!! I thought I paid good money to keep that vid out of circulation... you can't trust anyone.

Solder wave shutdown | 12 June, 2007

So, does turning off your glue gun at nite save energy or should you just leave it on? LOL!

Patrick Bruneel

Solder wave shutdown | 12 June, 2007

Huss,

Great conclusion to what I believe to be a record thread (in hits and responses). Some people just have too much time on their hands.

Solder wave shutdown | 12 June, 2007

"In your example, you are comparing "Energy used to heat the solder and keep it warm" versus "Energy used to keep the solder warm" and fully discount the fact that the machine was ever turned off."

Track and field fans refer to this as the "Bob Costas School of Invalid Comparisons".

Solder wave shutdown | 12 June, 2007

You'll need to calibrate your effectiveness to the deliverables of the adhsive quality and initiate the description of the criteria for requirements by developing a framework for the application architecture consistent with the planning corridor specified in our strategic initiative. Once bilateral goals are established, the engineer continues to undertake reinvention activities and new initiatives, we recognize the need to establish a framework to provide the necessary structure for optimal interactions and complementarily of the various reinvention activities. The framework delineates four major goals for reinvention: (1) maximize scientific opportunities through optimal use of resources; (2) enhance engineering interactions with the scientific community; (3) clarify and streamline decision-making processes; and (4) focus internal operations on outcomes and results. Each of these goals are further developed into specific reinvention objectives, and the plan is to use these goals and objectives as guide-posts as the engineer moves forward with the myriad of reinvention projects.

Patrick Bruneel

Solder wave shutdown | 12 June, 2007

Chunks,

So in layman�s terms you are saying shut the darn thing off, if you�re not using it?

And by the way your explanation brings up some memories; I once had a boss that spoke to me the same way. The results are still visible, I shake my head to the left side every 5 seconds.

Solder wave shutdown | 14 June, 2007

Turn off your solder pot and let your glue gun keep it warm. If the glue gun catches fire it will be vented by the wave and you will suffer less damage. This damage will will be cost justified by the leaving the pot off.

Solder wave shutdown | 15 June, 2007

With the added bonus that the glue from the gluegun will form a natural barrier on top of the solderpot which will dramatically reduce dross build up.

Shouldnt we get this patented Chunks?

WaveMasterLarry

Solder wave shutdown | 25 July, 2008

You will incure costs to warm it up agin. I think thats what everyone here is posting.

WaveMasterLarry

Solder wave shutdown | 25 July, 2008

And i drive a Honnda now A CRV. Not sure what it stands for but it feels like a cylinder is missing. Blows some smoke but I'm still getting 35 miles to the quart. It's a brown one, so if you see me on the Illinois toll roads hong and wave. I'm driving slow cause I hyper-mile so don't be mean to me.

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