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MS2 molten solder surfactant

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Has anybody tried this stuff? I was asked about it this mor... - Jan 16, 2006 by

OZONE DEPLETING? ... - Mar 03, 2006 by

DannyJ

#39086

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 16 January, 2006

Has anybody tried this stuff? I was asked about it this morning and it sounds plausible from their website, minus "The small volume of spent material can then be inexpensively shipped back to P. Kay Metal for recycling" part.

Website: http://www.pkaymetal.com/dross.php4

Ahh, what happened to the good old days where there was better living through chemicals? ;-)

Dan

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#39092

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 16 January, 2006

Danny, I'm hoping to hear more about this, too. I've seen it mentioned in a couple of other posts, but so far Sara G. (Foresite Inc.) is the only regular SMTNet poster that's actually seen this stuff. Really curious about residues, and what kind of flux chemistries this would be compatible with. Hope to find out more...

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sarar

#39212

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 19 January, 2006

Hey guys - our lab has some data and photographs available for the MS2 for use in wave solder from some of the studies we have performed for P Kay. There are other versions being studied, but that is the only version available to market currently. If you want further details, my best suggestion would be to either contact Eric Camden in our lab at ec_foresite@residues.com - he'd be happy to discuss the data with you & send pictures, or get in touch with P Kay Metals directly.

Whenever I hear any more information about MS2, I'll post it here.

Sara Rice Foresite Inc. www.residues.com

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sarar

#39213

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 19 January, 2006

Me again - I actually just talked with one of the guys over at P Kay and Dan Feinberg of P Kay will be presenting a technical session on MS2 at APEX this year on February 9th. Just FYI!

Sara Rice Foresite Inc. www.residues.com

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#39274

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 23 January, 2006

Took your advice Sara, and did contact PK. Got a data sheet that says "no residue on boards or components". But not done with concerns just yet - for example, if the MS2 becomes thicker and more viscous, what's that doing to my pumps? Unfortunately not attending APEX, but sure would like to know what users of this surfactant think after a year of use. Guess I'll just have to wait...

Later All

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#39674

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 13 February, 2006

Hi all, I will do my best to answer questions on MS2 here. I will try to check back at least every other day.

The MS2 does not mix with the solder. It only reacts with the dross. It does not get down into the pumps.

It was just formally anounced last Wed at APEX and we are in the process of rolling out the supply chain. Yes, it works. No, it is not the old powder oils or waxes.

Dan (Baer) Feinberg

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#39676

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 13 February, 2006

Oh, by the way, it is compatable with any and all fluxes. It has no effect on flux and flux has no effect on it.

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#39684

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 14 February, 2006

I was able to escape from Riyadh last week to attend APEX. PK Metals actually had a booth where they did a live demo. They had a working solder pot with dual wave, and demonstrated how their material acts as a barrier to oxidation, which causes dross formation, and also, for the dross that DOES accumulate, it's easily separated from the solder. Seems to work. I plan to buy a bottle a demo it for a while.

Don't you hate people who pronounce dross, "DROSE", and solder, "SOUL-DER?"

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#39686

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 14 February, 2006

�..... their material acts as a barrier to oxidation," is wrong Mr. N. The MS2 material "consumes" oxides therefore removing the oxides from the dross by chemical reaction and releases the pure alloy. It is not a barrier and does not mix into the solder. They also have case studies where soldering quality has improved, in terms of hole fill, since adding the MS2 material.

Go to http://www.pkaymetal.com for more info.

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#39688

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 14 February, 2006

Let me give some information on the use of MS2. The average wave solder machine will use one liter per five day week per 8 hour shift. The usage can vary + or - 20%. Instead of removing 6 to 10 Lbs of dross every 3 hours you will have to remove 100 ML or so of spent MS2 and replace it with fresh material.

There are configurations of wave machines that may need modification for optimal performance such as those that have many baffles or places for dross to hide from the MS2. There is a short video showing it working on the web page www.pkaymetal.com

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#39690

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 14 February, 2006

I stand corrected! That's what I get for listening to our drugged up Maintenance guy. He told me, "The suf-FUC-tant acts as a barrier."

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DannyJ

#39780

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 17 February, 2006

Baer, Sara, et al.,

Thank you all for your responses. I apologize, we have a new line installed and have been quite busy the last month... I'm downloading the video as I type this from pkay.

Samir, please, if you get the sample and give it a trial run, I would be very interested to hear of your findings.

Sara, I did peruse the residue site, but did not see any pics referring to the product mentioned. Is there any possibility that those may be posted for public viewing?

Thanks in advance.

Dan

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#39782

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 17 February, 2006

We have a great deal of new reliability data and we are preparing a full document that shows the statistically valid reduction in solder related defects as well as the improved throughput. It will include all of the SIR test results which are all good. I can e mail the SIR data to you if that would help. The overall document will be completed in a few weeks. We will also have a installation guide both in print and electronically which will include additional videos but that will not be available until mid march.

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#39794

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 17 February, 2006

I just tested last week and the only "issue" I found is for electrovert machines, that covers need to be added to make the solder flow throught MS2, my solder consumption drop to 30%!!

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#39805

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 19 February, 2006

A 70 reduction in solder useage is about what we are seeing. You are correct that there are machines that work better with MS2 than others. We are able to make slight modifications to those units, mainly making it more difficult for dross to hide from the MS2.

We also have new reliability data clearly showing better wetting and reduced solder related defects when using MS2 so the savings go well beyond dross elimination.

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GF

#40160

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 3 March, 2006

OZONE DEPLETING?

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Fliyer32

#40446

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 15 March, 2006

I tried MS2 for almost two weeks and I can see it works. MS2 is more a preventive tool rather than a solution to convert pour on top of the dross. Very important if you use this stuff is that you do the encapsulation of the wave, the bigger the surface area the more MS2 you will need. PX Metals installed it 8 business dayas ago and we almost done witht e second bottle. I believe we can optimize it to 1 bottle a week. You can see the improvemetn in the process already. Any questions let me know. We run a regualr lead wave solder eletrovert econopak.

Fliyer32, M.E.

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Wave Master Larry

#40447

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 15 March, 2006

WELL I heard rumblings from the engineering dept that they wanna try this stuff here at my place of emplyment. Im not so sure about this.I've always herd that dross is part of the solder joint and part of wavesoldering.As I said before Ive done this for over 12 years and know that dross is there for a reason.Just not sure if will help with the pCB board qualty.

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Dan Feinberg

#40450

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 15 March, 2006

Greetings all, Dross has no value to the assembler. It actually degrades quality as a clean solder pot provides a more consistent process. Yes, removing dross does remove some metallic contaminates but that is overkill, like throwing away your refrigerator because some of the food is out of date. Better to just replace the small amount of out of date food.

We have statistically valid data that shows that solder related defects as measured in DPMO are greatly reduced. You can see this on the P. Kay web site (www.pkaymetal.com)

The comment above is correct; the average usage of MS2 is a liter per machine per shift per week once the operators have been trained and the process has been optimized, in other words, one liter per 40 hours of wave soldering. During that time you will reduce solder usage by 60% or more and the DPMO (defects per million opportunities) will be greatly reduced based on production data we have received from the first high volume users.

One other comment, this is NOT an oil, it is NOT a powder, it as different from the old dross reducers as an 8 track tape is from an MP3 file. We now have far more production experience and are getting more every week. We apologize for not being able to respond to all of the requests for trials quickly but the response after the introduction at APEX has been overwhelming.

I will check back here periodically to try and answer any questions that may arise.

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RDR

#40453

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 15 March, 2006

When will I be able to try some in Colorado? Do I still have to wait for a local rep?

Please E-Mail me and let me know

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#40454

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 15 March, 2006

Russ, I have sent you an e mail.

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Loco

#40470

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 16 March, 2006

When you say you see an improvement in the process, what exactly does improve?

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#40471

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 16 March, 2006

I have some on order actually and should be getting it in a couple of days.

I will keep everyone posted on results - even the skeptic, Wave Master Larry!

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#40480

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 16 March, 2006

I can tell you that I have been involved in new process chemical introductions for 40 years. I have seen a lot of claimes and this is one of the best inovations I have seen. If I was not convinced of this I would not be involved.

As for process improvement, besides saving tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in solder purchases the wetting and hole fill seem to be better. The solder pot is free of contaminating dross so this makes sense. The data showing four months of testing from Scientific Atlanta (the first production instalation) is starteling. It is on the P Kay web site along with a sample video. Like with any process chemical, remember this is not a solder blanket but a true reactive process chemical that reacts with dross only, instalation and process control are important.

In any case it is now installed in over 20 facilities with more comming on line every week and the results seem to all be positive. If you e mail me and have the patience to click through my spam filters (sorry but they are necessary) I will try to send you what ever data and information that you want. I do not want to post comercial information here.

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#46383

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 26 December, 2006

Hello! About Dross reducing(recycle)everyone can check the following patent. US PATENT # 616,161 1898 year!!!! Also, from the contemprorary patents, US PATENT # 6,942,791 and some others. If using MS2 molten solder surfactant, every week you will pay hundreds of dollars. By using one of the patents mentioned above, you will spend those hundreds of dolars only once!!! Everything else, according to the quality and quantity of savings will remain the same, except the money you will be spending every week... Good luck for everyone who is able to search patents!!!!!

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#46395

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 27 December, 2006

Petrov, put the eggnog down and come out with your brains in the air.

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John

#47823

MS2 molten solder surfactant | 19 February, 2007

To: Wave Master Larry, You are correct in one respect. There is always dross on the wave, but it is a result of oxidation of the tin and lead. It IN NO WAY POSITIVELY EFFECTS the solder process, in fact, dross trapped in the solder joint is a detrimental contaminant. I have not tried this stuff myself, but if it's anywhere close to what people are saying in the way of dross reduction, it has to be good.

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