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Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines

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Sorry this is a repost of a wrong subject thread earlier ...... - Nov 23, 2005 by

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Hi, Would you consider pre-owned SMT equipment for your p... - Nov 23, 2005 by Jason Robotham - Tekmart  

SJ

#38053

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 23 November, 2005

Sorry this is a repost of a wrong subject thread earlier ...

We're a U.S.-based small-medium sized CM and have a relatively high-mix of boards. We want to start a new machine platform starting from lower-end (slower) and later to higher-end (mass production) machines of the same brand (programs).

Other than Fuji, which has too much of a price premium, we're looking into: Philips Assembleon (starting from Topaz) Panasonic Siemens Dematic

We'd appreciate any experience/opinions on any of the three brands in the U.S. in terms of: - ease of programming - ease of set-up (we have boards from prototype to 10K per run) - customer services - cost of accessories (feeders) - overall value (price/performance)

Any advice will be greatly appreciated!! Sean

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Jason Robotham - Tekmart

#38059

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 23 November, 2005

Hi,

Would you consider pre-owned SMT equipment for your production lines?

Panasonic FA sells refurbished, certified machines.

My preference in order as follows;

- Panasonic - Siemens - Philips Assembleon

Please contact me as we can help you with used equipment sourcing (Panasonic, KME, Fuji, UIC, Sanyo, Philips/Yamaha, Samsung, etc.) and with refurbished/certified Panasonic, new Sony SMT equipment.

Regards, jason@tekmart.com

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#38060

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 23 November, 2005

Sean, It seems you have a good list to consider so far. Are you also aware of the Universal AdVantis product line(based on the very successful GSM platform)? There are multiple machine configurations and options providing the upgrade path you are looking for. http://www.uic.com/wcms/WCMS2.nsf/index/Products_18.html

rgds, Todd

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adlsmt

#38061

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 23 November, 2005

You may want to look at Universal Instruments as well. We had Assembleon, Panasonic and Contact systems equipment and decided to try to pick one platform for the future to simplify programming and training. We are a high mix CM that also does high volume some times. Quality was more important than speed to us as was ease of programming-but speed was important. The problem with the in-line spindle machines is that they can not use auto pick correction and maintain speed, they have to gang pick to run at a decent rate. They are fine for flex-placers but not chip shooters. Fuji, Panasonic, Siemens and Universal are all tier one suppliers and all have machines that pick only one part at a time but collect a lot of parts before moving to make placements. Of course a turret machine would be faster but then you are moving the board and still cant use pick correction, at least not to the extent you can on a gantry machine. This also allows you to use fixed feeder setups without loosing much speed-which you cant do on the parallel processing machines which Fuji and Assembleon also make. Of the above, I thought they were all out of our price range. Although its hard to tell because they quote you one price and then keep cranking up the discounts. Which made me wonder when to stop expecting more price cuts and if I was paying more than anybody else for a machine. Universal has fixed pricing and it was very reasonable. We bought an AC-72 and an AC-30. They were $125K and $150K respectively for the base machines. The AC-30 is similar to a GSM but has a solid frame and dual leadscrew drive. Its a very nice machine but what put us over the edge was the AC-72. After watching this machine in three different factories I was very impressed. Now that we have it installed I am thrilled with it. The design of the head is very simple yet it works great. The new NPI software is great and everyone at Universal has been great to work with. I would at least give it a look. I dont think Universal has any decent footage of it but we do on our website at http://www.adltech.com. There is a link for a video of it running in real time. Keep in mind it will put down a 30X30mm QFP at the speed you see it running at. It is awsome!!

No, I dont work for Universal but I have been very happy with them and thier equipment.

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#38075

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 24 November, 2005

Sorry, the AC-30 is the "Lightning Head" machine and the AC-72 is the flex placer. The price is correct. Was in a hurry to get home on Friday and reversed them in the sentence after the price.

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#38076

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 24 November, 2005

Hi,

We are also a hig mix low volum plant situated in Sri Lanka and just installed 2 Opals inline from Assembleon with the feeder exchange carts for faster change over. This machines can be upgraded to Topaz by just installing 4 more heads. So far we have good expirience but wished we could buy a component database to save the thedious input of component data. We found it was the best value for money so far. However may also have a look at Yamaha in the future.

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#38077

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 24 November, 2005

Your Assembleon Opal is built by Yamaha.

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#38078

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 24 November, 2005

Sean-

Can't imagine you will be pleased with pricing for PFA and Siemens equipment if Fuji is too expensive for your requirement. I don't feel they would be any cheaper then Fuji....and might even be MORE expensive. Based on the four platforms you mentioned, a Topax Xii will be far cheaper and perform quite well...quite possibly well enough for what you want to do. If you decide on that route I wouldn't bother looking at used Topaz machines though. The price point between new and used for these machines is never worth it in my view.

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#38116

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 29 November, 2005

Particular as a small company and limited resources you�ll be requiring a lot of assistance from the machine vendor. Did you check which other machines are used in your area and if there is already a local service tech? Did you get in contact with one of the local service tech�s from the perspective vendor? Did anyone spend the time with you to explain some of the soft- and hardware? Did you get a demo on any of these machines? If you get a feeling that any of these vendors look at you as a too small fish to catch, than this may not be the right vendor for you. Actually, I would even expect the machine vendor tell you in all honesty, if their machines would fit in your operation. Yes, any machine sale counts, but an unhappy customer is not worth it. Although I always promote the Siemens machines, this may not be the best choice for a start up business. Panasonic/KME and Siemens are nose to nose in the largest manufacturing market in China, not looking back anymore at the small starting business. Their target customers are the big guys. The advantage of this new-better-faster race is that a 10 years old machine is already very old in its technology. For a used machine you get a lot of machine for your money, but do you have the resources to fix these machines when they brake down on you?

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SJ

#38127

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 29 November, 2005

Just want to thank you all for the great advice to this thread!!

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JW

#38173

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 1 December, 2005

> Just want to thank you all for the great advice > to this thread!!

SJ, Have you considered Juki SMT equipment. We are a small/mid volume, high mix OEM and we have had great luck with both the previous 700 series and now the 2000 series placement machines. Good support and excellent reliabilty. We compared them with the Assembleons (VERY close 2nd)Siemen's (too expensive overall) and the small footprint Fuji's (not flexible enough). Also Juki does closeout sales sometimes on their previous generation equipment with GREAT pricing!!!

Just FYI ... no connection to Juki ... just a customer.

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KEN

#38212

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 5 December, 2005

Agreed. I wouldn't look any earlier than the X, series for used. That's not to say the GEM series is bad, its only because it's 4 generations old.

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Mo

#38225

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 5 December, 2005

Hi SJ,

I am with PlainsCapital Leasing and I would love the opportunity to help you finance your new P&P machine. NO matter which machine you pick, I can help you figure out a lease or loan option to fit your companies needs. PlainsCapital Leasing is a bank-owned ($2.6 Billion in Assets), direct financing source (we are not brokers).

I specialize in Electronic Manufacturing equipment and we can help you with whatever you need. Thank you for your time and please feel free to contact me with any questions that you may have.

Sincerely,

Mo Tavackoli PlainsCapital Leasing Ph: 214-775-4618 mtavackoli@plainscapital.com www.plainscapital.com

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#38227

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 5 December, 2005

Hello SJ, We have a line of placement machines designed to suit your exact needs. Please visit our website and check out our C5 series placement machines. I would have contacted you directly if I could. Please email me if you have any questions. PS--we have been building electronic production equipment here in the U.S. for 35 years and have over 4000 installations. www.contactsystems.com

Regards, Greg Pompea VP Sales and Engineering Contact Systems

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jason

#38231

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 5 December, 2005

You should consider Yamaha instead of Opal and opal have limited machine in the market and long term will be big problem on cost of ownership. where is opal builb ? Europe or japan ?

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Rob

#38233

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 6 December, 2005

I was under the impression that the Assemblion/Philips Opal/topaz/GEM/Comet etc were all built in the same factory as the Yamaha machines - all except the FCM's. For the record they have very good support - better than Yamaha in some regions such as Europe.

Personally I'd go Fuji or Universal as although they may cost more they'll work a lot longer & harder.

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#38243

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 6 December, 2005

Correct Rob. All of those platforms are built by Yamaha in Japan. You cannot buy a Yamaha machine in The US.....must be Philips/Assembleon. Same scenario in Europe?

Rick

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Rob

#38262

Need Advice on SMT Pick&Place Machines | 7 December, 2005

Hi Rick,

It was, but there are a few Yamaha machines appearing & remarkably similar looking new machines branded I-Pulse.

Cheers,

Rob.

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