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Quad 1000, looking for opinion

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I'm looking at a Quad 1000 to purchase. Good machine? Does... - Oct 30, 2005 by Dave  

Amen brother. Amen. ... - Nov 05, 2005 by

#37441

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 30 October, 2005

I'm looking at a Quad 1000 to purchase. Good machine? Does it do fine pitch? What should I check for before buying? I have feeders for Quad 100, will they work?

Dave

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bobpan

#37448

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 31 October, 2005

The machine is a chip shooter only. I would use it for that purpose only......if you want a quad that will do fine pitch get a 2c or 4c. The machine should be able to use the old 5 volt feeders but.......dont know if snap on feeders will work on it. Service on that machine is non existent....but .....hahaha.....i used to train/repair them and could help you out for a few pennys.....hahahah....

good luck.

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#37466

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 31 October, 2005

bobpan, thanks for the reply. I currently have a Quad 100 with no vision, well it had vision but is blind now and the vision system is not supported.

Anyway, I use it for my own production. I can leave it set up for my product runs. Technology changes has forced me to use fine pitch IC packages and I have to deal with that.

At this point I think I will have to manually place the fine parts. There are three per board and I can manage that for now. If sales get to a level that makes that not practical I either have to upgrade equipment or have the board assembly done outside.

I'm at a point that I can look for another machine and not have to make a quick decision. Are there machines offered on this forum? Because of the number of feeders I have I would like to stay with a compatable Quad.

Having a knowelegable person available is a must. I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for help. $150/hr plus travel and boarding for a Quad tech is out of the question. I got the old Quad 100 working with help from Quad but from reading your post that's not available now. BTW is the latest version of Central Controller available from someone on this forum?

I don't need speed, just accuracy and small space and a good level of reliability.

Open to suggestions. What is a chip shooter? Aren't all the SMT parts referred to as "chips"?

Dave

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bobpan

#37468

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 31 October, 2005

Dave, The quad 1000 was a samsung machine with quads name on it......the software sucks and it is totally different from central controller. If you go for a machine....go for a 2c r 4c if you still want to use the same feeders. Chip shooter means 0805 or 1206 parts but certainly not fine pitch.

Also the part centering on a quad 1000 is still manually done and not done with laser centering. Unless you are getting it for close to nothing......i would say no thanks.

my 2 cents worth chow.

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bobpan

#37469

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 31 October, 2005

Oh, bye the way, the latest version cc for a 100 is version 5.6d and i dont have it but i am sure someone...somewhere...somehow......does....hahaha... and if you get a copy....just dont load it......there are some files to back up first....or you could be paying someone $150/hr to fix your machine.

chow

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PWH

#37479

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 31 October, 2005

Agreed - if mechanical chucking nozzles - baddddd deal. Won't work well at all on anything smaller than 0805. 0603 sort of O.K. but...

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#37482

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 31 October, 2005

Ok, it looks like the direction I should take is NO mechanical chucking. I can identify with that!

Using my existing feeders would make sense as that was my biggest cost of what I have now.

Are the machines you mentioned non-mechanical chucking? Are they small foorprint (Quad 100 size)? What are the types of centering used (details please)? Are they still supported by Tyco?

I truly appreciate your input. This time I would like to have a good working machine.

Dave

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KEN

#37485

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 31 October, 2005

"I don't need speed, just accuracy and small space and a good level of reliability."

....from Quad?

I guess we have different ideas of what accuracy and reliability is.

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bobpan

#37494

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 1 November, 2005

Dave, Dont mind Ken.....in the past he just hired the wrong ex-quad guy previously that couldnt get his machines working right......anyways.....if you want to keep the same feeders you would need a 2c or 4c....the centering should be a quad-align but older machines used cyberoptics which worked ok. For all the specifics....talk to Tom Nisbit....at Precision Placement Machines.....they sell used quad stuff....at a good price. And please Ken....i dont want to argue over the quad equipment......all i know....is that i work with over 20 machines that place as good as anything out there....nuff said....

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erokc

#37513

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 1 November, 2005

I was reffered to PPM by a dealer on the east coast. There web site is well constructed and looks like they are organized. When I can get enough knowledge to carry on a conversation I'll call Tom.

What is the difference in the 2c and 4c? From what I have read so far there seems to be different options on centering. Quad Vu4, Vu6, etc. ???

Dave

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bobpan

#37514

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 1 November, 2005

2c belt driven.....'a little' less accurate (costs less) 4c ball screw......'a little' more accurate (costs more)

vu4-vu6 upward camera for fine pitch.....cant remember but the differenc is the field of view for camera.

part centering is quad-align or cyber-optics. The quad align is a more robust centering option. In plain old english....it just works better.

chow

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KEN

#37525

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 1 November, 2005

Even Quad couldn't get the machines running right (chuckle).

If it takes a Quad Field Service Engineer to run a machine what good is the machine?

I suspect you have little experience with other equipment makers. Which explains your fierce allegance to a obsolete equipment. That or your an ex-rep.

20 machines. Why that must be the entire install base world-wide.

You might as well tell the original poster to commit suicide. Bad advice is just bad advise no matter how you slice it.

Nuff said.

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#37526

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 1 November, 2005

bobpan, send me an e-mail if you don't mind.

KEN needs something to do. Every group has their KENs and smutking!

I found this forum on a search for Quad 1000. The "Quad 1000 error" post came up with a reply from smutking.

Dave

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KEN

#37529

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 1 November, 2005

Please note your post title, " Quad 1000, looking for opinion".

This is not your usual self-affirmation comittee. You asked for opinions. You got an opinion from soneone well versed in this industry (18 years) with no personal gains to be made from spare parts, services or equipment sales.

I made No wild boasts about delivering the world or challenging (insert platform name here) vs. quad or like wise. But you Quad guys are rabid in your opinions about quads. And in particular about anyone with a dissenting opinion.

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Rob

#37537

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 2 November, 2005

There have been times when we could have done with having a Ken or 2; He may not always agree with everyone but he has demonstrated a very good process knowledge over all the time I've been using SMT net. Also I've never read one of his posts that was technically innaccurate.

Re the Quad arguement: they are not great machines, but they will do a job. You do not appear to be demonstrating a great deal of knowledge on this range, so if this is the case it may be a good idea to change over now to a cheap second user machine of a more mainstream machine still in production.

Else if the Quad is what you know & want, then good luck.

BTW Chipshooters are designed to place all of the small parts on a board (typically anything up to 20mmx20mm) very fast (40,000 per hour+), traditionally they would be inline with a fine pitch/odd form placer to handle all of the larger parts. Fuji, Sanyo & panasonic were the main players, and the machines are based around large rotating turrets that pick & place at the same time (with the board moving underneath)

The industry moved more towards flexible placers (that do everything) and now any machine that concentrates on fast placement of smaller components has been labelled a Chipshooter.

Interestingly both Siemens & universal have both added turrets (albeit moving ones) to there range of fast placers.

Cheers,

Rob.

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bobpan

#37539

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 2 November, 2005

Dave....i dont know your e-mail address...post one up and we can get in touch.....

chow

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#37548

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 2 November, 2005

Look, if someone is looking seriously at a Quad 1000 they're not likely to be working with a large capital budget.

If Quad isn't the answer, what is? What's the best option for a guy looking at machines in the [ $2000-$10000? ] price range?

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Rob

#37552

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 2 November, 2005

Depends on the actual requirements of the machine & the skill of the operator, but for that sort of money I've seen Juki 570's with a stack of feeders, Versatronics RV4's, older Mydata's, Samsung CP30's, Essemtec, Philips CSM's etc. I even once bought a CP6 for $17,500 after an auction as the buyer got cold feet & the building needed emptying.

A lot of it involves doing your home work & being in the right place at the right time.

That's a very tough price range Steve, so there's going to be a lot of crap floating around for those sort of prices & it can be a false economy.

Besides I did say they would do a job.

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#37562

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 2 November, 2005

First about the forum posting, my displayed name "Dave" comes up as my logon name "erokc" on this computer, not so on another computer I use??? Author names that allow email can be selected like "Dave". Bobpan, click on "Dave" to send an e-mail.

You guys are right. I do have a limited budget. I don't know much about the machines out there. I'm trying to learn. I don't doubt there are better machines than Quads but at what price.

Here is where I stand for SMT assembly. I bought two Quad 100s and got one working. For $15,000 I got the two machines and 50 feeders. I considered the feeders the more valuable part of the purchase. If I found a different make of machine with feeders at a price I could afford I would definately change. The reason I'm looking at Quad is because of the feeders I already have.

Another problem is I'm not in a good location (Oklahoma City) for finding machines. I previously relied on a dealer to find the Quad I have now and that turned out to be a bad experience.

I have a new product being developed and in a few months I will need fine pitch placement. I will either place the three parts per board manually or hire the assembly done. The board runs will be 100 to 500 at a time. That means a set up each time if someone else does it. If I have my own machine I don't have to change the set up. That also means I don't make money with the machine when it's not running. That is limiting what I can invest into it.

Rob, thanks for your explination of the machine types. Knowing configurations is necessary. I don't have exposure to learn about them. Sales people are going to tell me how good there machine is and nothing more. You guys are my best source for knowledge and experience.

I have some time to find something that is small, works for fine pitch and will place caps, resistors and a connector or two, ie. everything on my board. It does not need to be fast. I won't be putting a lot of hours on it so it would not need to be a low hour machine.

It just occured to me that the Quad feeders might work on other machines. The height if the picking plane would be the determining factor.

Anyway, I've got to get back to work.

Dave

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bobpan

#37563

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 2 November, 2005

Dave, It will only let me see your e-mail if i am a registered user.......i guess i will register.....

chow

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#37567

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 2 November, 2005

Dear Dave, Hope that you find good help for your issue. I have read through your thread and see that you're stressing out over a financial vs long term benefits, I would like to present some numbers to you.

$75-$175 per hour for a "Quad expert" support + parts that would average out to $1500/day for ???days. VS. $2.81/ea for orders in qty of 101pcs - 250pcs $2.34/ea for orders in qty of 251pcs - 500pcs Pick up and delivery within 48hrs (included).

$3.29/ea for orders in qty of 101pcs - 250pcs $2.73/ea for orders in qty of 251pcs - 250pcs Pick up and delivery within 24hrs (included). If delivery dates are flexable, then costs are lowered.

When you are ready, please email me. I hope that I can serve your business needs. tony.nguyen@1starticle.com

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#37570

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 2 November, 2005

Nice pitch, Tony, too bad that sort of angle isn't supported by the fine people that run this site (nor many of the users).

Nice knowin' ya.

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#37594

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 3 November, 2005

"Besides I did say they would do a job."

I know you did....note I was responding to a previous poster. ;)

I mutter something under my breath about our Quads daily. They reject simple parts randomly for no apparent reason, refuse to align some no matter what dimensions we use (but will accept others with exactly the same dimensions), the editors are a PIA to deal with, etc.

The thing is, we're tiny compared to my last employer, they're in our price range, and they're available. Granted, sometimes there are bad reasons for good availability.

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Rob

#37596

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 3 November, 2005

Tell me about it, I've set up & run places with placement capacities of 180K & 300K Per hour, and on the other side places with around 2-5KPH (if you ran quick enough between the machines & were nifty with a rubber blade). And I've worked for some of most miserly people on earth.

The trick is doing what you can with the resources at your disposal, and still being competitive (and very creative).

My next "challenge" will be an SMT prototyping lab for under $35K that can do 0402 to big BGA's. Any views on low volume vapour phase with the aforementioned? I've heard tombstoning is a nightmare for 0402's. Wish me luck.

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#37598

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 3 November, 2005

Steve, Dave has initiated this threat to find a solution for his Quad, but ultimately, it's to solve his production issues, my suggestions was to help Dave out if he wanted it. To make it clear, I did not advertize my company's name nor address, not even a web site address. So, Steve, your opinion is noted by me and remember this, some one here was also offering his help for money (nothing is free). Last comment, if you have much free time, seems likely, help other fellows out with your knowledge and experience instead of wasting your time and others by making needless comments. My apology to every one else in this threat, whom I may have wasted valuable time by posting this reply, but felt the need to. Have a good day every one.

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RDR

#37599

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 3 November, 2005

Good Luck! Good profile and correct pad design will make for an easy 0402 and 0201 without tombstone process.

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Rob

#37601

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 3 November, 2005

Hi Tony,

To give you the benefit of the doubt on this occasion, if you want to contact a poster direct, so as not to be accused of shameless plugs for your company (and listing your email when it is the same as your web site & company name may be construed as this) you can click on the person's name & email them personally.

Steve is a proven valued contributor to this forum (click on the face next to a name & it gives the number of posts they have made), & we all get annoyed at adverts masquerading as posts.

Your response to him does you & your company no credit.

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#37614

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 3 November, 2005

Rob, Thanks for the tips, and it is admiralble to compliment another forum member, and shouldn't all members remain at that high integrity level? indtead of posting de-grading comments? I have made my apology to all, and this is my last reply to this threat. In the future, I will do my best to avoid your group's postings.

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#37615

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 3 November, 2005

Here here, I started this thread. If someone offers a solution I'll consider it. If it happens to involve trade so what. It was offered to my specific request, not just blatantly posted.

It may be my best solution to have someone else assemble my boards. I've always taken the "do it myself" approach but that's hasn't always been the best choice.

Dave

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#37619

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 3 November, 2005

Tony, you said:

"Steve, Dave has initiated this threat to find a solution for his Quad, but ultimately, it's to solve his production issues, my suggestions was to help Dave out if he wanted it. To make it clear, I did not advertize my company's name nor address, not even a web site address."

Yes, you did, albeit slightly veiled.

"So, Steve, your opinion is noted by me and remember this, some one here was also offering his help for money (nothing is free)."

I didn't see a piece price in his first post to the forum like I did in yours.

"Last comment, if you have much free time, seems likely, help other fellows out with your knowledge and experience instead of wasting your time and others by making needless comments."

I thought it was necessary or I wouldn't have made my comment. You clearly haven't been around much and I figured you needed a head's up. My apologies if you took offense, but this is a TECHNICAL forum, not a sales opportunity forum. You didn't address the Dave's question at all. There are loads of people here that would be happy to put together a quote for him but they respect the intent of the forum.

SMTnet has many paying advertisers on this site. Should you choose to become one I'm sure they'd appreciate the new business.

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#37621

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 3 November, 2005

My apologies for stomping on your thread, Dave. I just find it way out of line to provide quotes on this board.

If someone wants to say "You may have better alternatives, please contact me at XXXX@XXXXXXXX.XXX if you'd like to discuss them.", there would be no issues.

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bobpan

#37636

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 4 November, 2005

wow....Dave.....see what you started....hahahahha.....this was truly a great 'thread'

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#37642

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 4 November, 2005

My opinion, the best place for all old Quad machines is in the dumpster and the model 1000 the most. Even though its a Samsung design. The entire Quad "C" series is the next most deserving of the dumpster.

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#37646

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 4 November, 2005

To All, AGAIN, my apology! (I don't know how many times I have to do this to get people of my back)

To Dave, I'm sorry that I have stirred up negative emotions from certain individuals in your thread (it was un-intentional). Hope you'll find a direct solution to your issues. Good luck.

To Moderator, could you remove all of my previous posts in this thread please.

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KEN

#37664

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 5 November, 2005

See...just mention a four letter word (quad) and watch the sparks fly!

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KEN

#37674

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 5 November, 2005

Amen brother. Amen.

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#37879

Quad 1000, looking for opinion | 15 November, 2005

I couldn't resist, Under 20k used, uses quad feeders pretty accurate and relable - QSA-30?

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