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Universal Advantis

Views: 4011

PWH

#37399

Universal Advantis | 28 October, 2005

I'm considering buying a UIC Advantis P&P machine. I'm worried about the huge, additional cost of new feeders. We've been running GSM's for years so we have tons of GSM vibe bases, tracks and feeders. UIC tells me that old pneumatic GSM feeders can run on Advantis but it's not a good idea on a turret style, "Lightning Head" configuration. They tell me it will work O.K. on the 4 and 7 spindle head configuration. Does anyone have production experience running GSM Pneumatic feeders on Advantis? Bad idea or not???

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Rob

#37401

Universal Advantis | 28 October, 2005

They don't index fast enough - On GSM's the original "black" feeders were replaced by "blue" feeders that indexed a lot quicker, that just about kept up with a flex head.

There's no way one of those is going to index 8 or 9 times a second to keep up with the lightning head.

However....

I would have thought that they would only need to index fast on multiple picks from the same feeder - so you may get away with a mix, ...unless you are lucky enough to have a company that will treat you to a brand new stack of feeders.

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Cmiller

#37407

Universal Advantis | 28 October, 2005

Your vibe feeders will probably work fine. Using the old tape feeders on a Lighning head will limit the speed of the machine big time. I have not done it but I dont think its a good idea. We considered buying used feeders to offset the cost of our new Advantis machines but decided it was not worth the savings. Most of our problems are caused by feeders so to spend all that $$$$$ on new machines and put the old feeders on them did not make sense. We bought a AC-72 and a AC-30. Its our first Universal line. So far I have been delighted with the machines and every single person I have delt with at Universal. Its always exciting to get new equipment but its hard to describe the feeling I get whenever I see that Lightning head running. It is incredible!!!

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#37408

Universal Advantis | 28 October, 2005

Just as an option you might want to look at Assembleon also. They have an adaptive base that allows you to run the GSM feeders on the new MG machine, which is faster than the UIC machine. I do not work for Assembleon just wanted to mention it.

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#37419

Universal Advantis | 28 October, 2005

The older generation "GSM" feeders will work fine on the multifunction variations of the AdVantis Platform, but will not physically work on the Lightning based AC30L. The AC30L uses a 42v feeder interface, while the MF versions have both the new 42v standard and the legacy 24v to support older style feeders. The newer generation Prepro feeders provide better pick reliablity (especially for 0201 and 0402) as well as a faster index speed. The soon to be released Vpro feeders are a low cost alternative with improved performance, but at a slightly slower speed. Both of these are Lightning compatible. Prepro feeders index at a speed compatible with the Lightning head. Using the Vpros will slow an AC30L if your applications call for continuous pick from a single feeder. If you would normally be randomly accessing several part numbers there is usually little to no derate.

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Cmiller

#37424

Universal Advantis | 28 October, 2005

We were quoted a lower cost feeder for the AC-30 but its not a smart feeder so we stuck with the precision pro. I assume by that that the low cost version is available now.

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Mika

#37434

Universal Advantis | 30 October, 2005

Hello mr. vickt. I do not buy your sales argument, despite it sounds like a good bargain for UIC. The truth is that every new machine/option newer worked from the beginning (this goes for every vendor/manufactory). The costs for dealing with the "so called new options" on a new/old machine; can sometimes be very hihg. This is like S/W:s that needs an upgrade to work once in a while, but in the case of this; it could be very expensive. Do No let anything on the market, unless You know that the equipment is working!'

I must ask one question: How about a new bicycle for the kids on the street and the breakes are still under development...? You see, this is what are paying for; a working, reliable, functional, service organsation and GOOD relatioship. /Sincserly

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Cmiller

#37443

Universal Advantis | 30 October, 2005

That one was over my head!!!

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#37461

Universal Advantis | 31 October, 2005

Mika, Interesting input. Not sure I follow all of it, but I will offer this..... For any manufacturer, a point comes where there are technological or performance based descisions that must be made in order to continue progress of their products. UIC does it's very best to provide compatibility across generations of machines. Not every manufacturer focuses on this in the same manner. UIC takes painstaking efforts to provide this support, and believe me, it is not always a "good bargain" or an easy solution. In fact, there are often sacrifices made to protect customers original investments. Future upgradeability is not free of charge (I hope you weren't suggesting this?), however it usually provides a good ROI based on increased performance and new functionality/features. thx

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Rob

#37462

Universal Advantis | 31 October, 2005

Hi Vickt,

Future upgrades on machine software should be free when they fix known bugs/problems. However these are usually sold as upgrades with additional benefits thrown in.

That's just hiding the fact there was a problem in the first place, and effectively charging you to fix their original problem, with some nice things to sweeten the pill.

Yes Universal does offer great service support, a high degree of backwards compatibility, and some really good machines, but lets face it, the software in the past (as any user of a GSM can testify) sucked.

GregP: Just out of interest, what do guys do when (or if!) you find a software bug - do you fix it for your customers or incorporate it into a charged upgrade later down the line?

Cheers,

Rob.

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PWH

#37464

Universal Advantis | 31 October, 2005

Thanks for the input, all!

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#37465

Universal Advantis | 31 October, 2005

Rob..... First off...Sorry if you have had an issue in the past, but please know that not every customer has your opinion about our legacy software. UIC's policy is not to charge for s/w "fixes" for at least the first year from initial purchase. We followed this process for OS/2 level machines. We have always offered software service contracts to our customers that serve many purposes. One is a licensing agreement, another one of these is the ability to track which customers have which software revisions and in which location. We can verify s/w levels and features based on each machines configuration as well ensuring compatibility. Many times our customers relocate machines to other plants or other parts of the world or even sell them to new owners. Having this database enables us to better serve them when needs arrive. rgds...

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Rob

#37467

Universal Advantis | 31 October, 2005

Hi Vickt,

No need to apologise, I'd still buy another Universal, as you make good machines.

Rob.

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Luke

#37470

Universal Advantis | 31 October, 2005

We have recently undergone perhaps the largest series of upgrades possible on these machines. This was a technology and cost based decision. Altough we had some issues, the main point I would make is not everything is/can be tested. There should always be a matrix identifying 98% of the integration issues and I have never seen a manufacturer not use this method.

The issues were identified and resolved in a timlely manner. Given the cost/benefits analysis, this was an easy decision. I all cases, that should be the first step.

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#37477

Universal Advantis | 31 October, 2005

Hello Rob, So glad you thought of me... Contact Systems policy is--and always has been--free software upgrades for the life of the machine. We do not differentiate betweeen "bug" fixes and added features. Each release is a combination of the two although great care is taken to minimize bugs before official releases. We will typically install a Beta version at a few sites for field testing before final release. If a bug is discovered in an official released version and can't be tolerated until the next release we will provide an interim (maintenance) version to those customers who need it. Free software upgrades in this day and age. We simply try harder. Cheers, Greg

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#37663

Universal Advantis | 5 November, 2005

Hello again mr vickt, The thing I was thinking about is just that: the UPS S/W. There is a lot of programming codes in the s/w, I know that. There is a lot of specific operation of the base machine controlled by s/w, not to mention all the extra options required by the customers. To be able to fulfill all of that, can really be a pain kill. We also have customers with simular high expectations and needs. I had a rough year dealing with all the s/w bug's sometimes causing the machines to break down; due to a s/w issuue, sometimes no customer deliverys. We bought some machines and some machine upgrades for just over the time limit to be able to get the neccesary updates! The answer was that we needed a "software service contract" to fix the major bugs, which was way to much for us to pay!

Come on, patches for free to fix bugs should be free.

It is a completely another question if the customer wants an extra option/feature. Don't you think?

When I wrote the apply in this thread I was not thinking very much of the original author, which I apologize for.

Don't get me wrong and it is not by any meaning that it was my intention, to personally or otherwise miscredit UIC; I belive that we have been very pleased with the performance and reliabily of the machines. Sincerely:) Ps. PWH, did You get an answer to Your initial queston? Ds.

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Ola

#37836

Universal Advantis | 12 November, 2005

I think Rob & Mika has a point here about the s/w. We think that this is a very good machines and s/w, but in some cases it is necessary for an update to fix some s/w problem. We usually need to pay a lot of money for that and receive some features/options that we have not asked for. Almost all of our machine vendors do the same thing.

Why is that? A s/w update is not the same as a s/w upgrade. Perhaps this is not suitable in this thread, but since it was brought up...

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Dave Prosser

#37854

Universal Advantis - end user | 14 November, 2005

I just sold my 2 GSMs and purchase 2 new Advantis. The AC-30L is with the lightening head and a AX-72 which has a flex head and a flexjet. So I know the feeder situation very well and some of the advice you have received is not valid.

Feel free to contact me if you want to talk about.

Dave Prosser Director of Operations Consultronics 905-760-7094 - direct line 905-738-3741 - main

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