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ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix

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#36370

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 29 August, 2005

Hi,

Looking to generate some discussion on the merits of using the ERSA Versaflow inline selective soldering machine as a real alternative to wave soldering in sub 100 batch size low volume high mix production PCBA Production.

I work for a tier 1 CEM and would appreciatte some feedback

Has anyone else done this......?

Bruce

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pr

#36375

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 29 August, 2005

If you are talking about smt components I'd say absolutely not. If these are through hole components I'd say possibly (if they are in rows, and not a whole lot of them). The machine is slow, but the quality is great. Creating a wave profile takes about 15 minutes to a half hour, creating a Versa Flow program takes considerably longer (and typos can be painful)! Remember you need about 3sec. dwell time on each joint and each move up and down (with the nozzle)and from joint to joint, eats more time.

good luck, pr

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#36376

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 29 August, 2005

Do you have expierience of this type of Machine.

approx how many product types are you running on your wave/ersa...? and approx batch sizes

We have had a 5060 for about 1 year and it has been a revalation.

your input is appreciatted as i am considering writing a paper on the merits of using this Kit in a particular envioroment and you input is appreciatted.

Regards

Bruce

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#36377

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 29 August, 2005

forgot to write,

what config of machine do you have......? single or dual Pot / Highspeed.....?

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pr

#36379

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 29 August, 2005

We have 2 dual head Versa-flows in line. We use them mainly for doublesided reflow jobs that have connectors and axial parts. I have about 15 jobs currently running on them. The advantage of having 2, is some of our boards have through hole on 1 side and 70 pin connectors on the other. So we do the axial first, flip it and do the connectors on the 2nd machine. When everything is on 1 side, sometimes I'll evenly split all 4 pots to increase tact time (but for most jobs it's not worth the effort, and I just use 1). The machines are great and very versitile just (as I said earlier...Slow). pr

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#36380

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 29 August, 2005

PR thankyou for your feedback, your comments are extremely helpful.

We have a customer product porfolio of about 900 active products, covering approx 700 different fabs.

your comments are absolutely valid with regards to Speed, however in our scenario we have managed to cost our model to include this kit (and its tact times) The spin offs for us selectively soldering high $ value assemblies as opposed to wave soldering can be seen in improved ICT and PTH yields, no need for pallets, or maint or stability/setup of wave.

One of our sister sites has purchased a highspeed machine "dip plate" because they were running volume.

Again, thanks for the feedback and good luck on those cycle times.

Cheers

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cmiller

#36401

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 30 August, 2005

If you do not have a lot of TH joints there are some advantages. No boards "submarined" in solder pot on wave. You can solder the bottome side SMT parts rather than epoxy them when the parts are put down. This should reduce SMT defects and missing parts on bottom side. It eliminates masking. You can increase dwell time on high mass TH parts. The downside-SPEED. Even if you use a large nozzle, the fluxer is slow. If you flux the whole board, a lot of the flux will never see the solder fountain, if water wash-no big deal, if no-clean, big deal. It would probably work well with water wash and an extra spray fluxer on the front of the machine to cover just the boards that you want completly fluxed.

If anyone with Versaflow experience is looking for a job, please let me know!!

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#36402

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 30 August, 2005

Hi Cmiller,

Sounds like someone else is finding out the benefits of the Versaflow.

Your comments are all valid.....?

What spec of machine do you have.....?

Are you running low Vol high mix.......?

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pr

#36411

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 30 August, 2005

I agree with cmiller on almost everything except the fluxer. I have not found that to be the slowest part of the process. On a slightly populated board, preheat will be the biggest cycle time killer. On very highly populated boards, time spent at the fountains will be the biggest cycle time killers. Maybe we have different fluxers but for me it's not the slowest part of the process.

my 2c

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#36445

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 1 September, 2005

We have a dual pot machine. The fluxer is not the slowest part of the process on most boards. However, we looked at running boards that had many hundreds of TH leads that we currently run through the wave in order to try not to buy a wave for lead-free. If we use a large nozzle, they would run fairly fast but the fluxer would be the bottle neck. I may be wrong, we did not pursue this, it did not seem feasible for highly populated through-hole baords. We have quick change pots on order for lead free so if someone is using this as a replacement for the wave, I am very interested. it would allow me to sell two Vectras!!! We are a high mix environment. We do a few 1000 pc runs here and there but mostly 20 to 250 pcs.

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#36446

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 1 September, 2005

PS, sorry for any confusion, ALDSMT and CMILLER are both me. ADLSMT is my user name on SMTNET and CMILLER is me, cmiller@adltech.com

I usually use cmiler to reply to stuff as if anybody e-mails me it makes more sense. adltech.com is a work in progress but should have some so-so pictures of our operation.

The Dual pot Versa flow was from an auction in the downturn a few years back. For a company our size its probably unheard of. (less than 6 million in revenue at that time) But it is an awsome tool I cant imagine living without. I cant believe our competitors dont have anything like it. I dont see how you could live without it. We have had it for three years. Ersa has provided very good support. Yes they charge for it but its been pretty reasonable. It does need to be kept up with maintanance. We try to have Ersa tech in at least once a year and now have signed up to have them a few times. Chad is our guy in Ohio and he does an exceptional job.

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#36449

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 1 September, 2005

Thanks Cmiller & PR,

I am warmed to hear others are doing this sort of thing.......like all inovative ideas, you often stumble into them. As far as im aware the ERSA dual Pot is the only machine avaiable on the market that can do this sort of thing without investing in shit loads of tooling.

From my perspective, the spin offs are immence. i have around 2000 wave solder pallets, stored out back in 2 ocean going containers that need constant attention, i throw away solder & dross through maintenance of the wave which no longer becomes an issue,there are no major over- spray issues with flux application normally associated with a wave, not to mention the ability to programme out repeatable soldering errors..........to good to be true.

i appreciatte the comments on the fluxing though. havent thought about that one.

cmiller, what config of nozzle do you use, we are using a 10mm nozzle in pot 1 and 3 mm in pot 2.........seems to work for our mix of products.....

Thanks again,

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cmiller

#36456

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 1 September, 2005

We change the nozzles depending on the job. Do you have the magnetic nozzles? We upgraded to that. Usually we use the smaller ones.

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lsmith

#36470

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 1 September, 2005

I do not have a ERSA Versaflow but do have some ERSA equipment. Only can tell you I will most likely not purchase anything else from them. The experience I have with their service after the sale would have to be rated VERY low. In addition, they email me price quotes on replacement parts and when I place the order for some reason the price shoots up 50% for no reason. Advise you to look for a machine from a different manufacturer.

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

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#36507

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 5 September, 2005

We have found the service to be OK, however we are in Western Europe. We do have a local Agent for ERSA, and things were a little slow at first.........however we now deal directly with a contact in the Factory. This seems to work out well.

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SC

#36518

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 6 September, 2005

tried the Pillarhouse??

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#36644

ERSA versa as alternative to wave soldering in low vol high mix | 15 September, 2005

Hi,

No we did not look at Pillerhouse,

We were not particular fond of "moving the product" principle to selective (i.e using a gripper over a static nozzle), as often this requires pallets, and our sister plant had already completed testing which added weight to this agruement and variation/tweaking programs in there trials (ERSA v's Vitronics v's Seho).

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