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I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of things in this business!

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Not all dealers in China the way as descript. There are good... - Aug 03, 2005 by Danny Hui  

#35873

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 3 August, 2005

Not all dealers in China the way as descript. There are good and professional dealers in China as well. It is how and who you deal with in China and whether one person had a reference or referral to the buyer or seller.

We are Singaporean and had been buying from US and Europe as well. We also get the same thing from this areas. Machines got inspected as good running condition but after receive machine, parts was missing and was been taken out before shipment and after our inspection back home.

We have freinds also bought a machine through photos but machines turn out to be different.

I could said that all buyers and sellers are the same BUT it all depends on whom you dealth with and the person that you know well.

If anyone of you receive my emails last 2 weeks, you will understand what I meant in the letter.

Dealers that wanted to buy a machines from another location, get friends that you trust to inspect on your behalf and supervise the whole process. This will make sure you get a good machine, no parts is taken out, get the actual machines that you see on your mails and etc. Just a small service charges and you get less problem. If friends you know, maybe is Free.

Cheers.........and hope there will be no such case on the ad again as this treat is damaging the China dealers image for all and personally feel is not right.

This Treat here is to place an act if you get Cheated and disclose whom you deal with so all dealers will place iut onthe black listed list. He will be then out from the market.

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Stefan

#35890

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 3 August, 2005

My apologies for the broad term "out of China". I'll disclose his name, if I don't get this issue resolved.

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#35907

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 4 August, 2005

It won't get resolved Stefen and no offense but it's really your fault for dealing with brokers in China in this fashion. Very few brokers in China actually own the equipment they are representing. There are a few but not many. I take it to another level beyond personally going over there and inspecting it. I won't even give the broker the money. I will give it to the owner of the machine but not a broker. I'll pay him whatever he was getting out of the deal but never the whole thing. You can't be too safe. Oh...the stories I could tell you.

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Rob

#35908

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 4 August, 2005

Hi Danny,

I do remember you recently suggested to a customer who was new to surface mount & wanted low volume the following equipment that you were selling:

1. MPM AP25 2. CP4 3. IP2

http://www.smtnet.com/Forums/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_thread&CFApp=1&Thread_ID=8969&#Message35655

That was totally unsuitable for the customer & hardly inspires trust in what you are trying to do.

I think you are going to have to work a bit harder on changing some peoples perception of far east dealers.

Rob.

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#35909

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 4 August, 2005

Hi,

We are currently selling a MYDATA, and several buyers are interested overseas, but we did not know this can happen.

I think the best thing would be to spend the money on the air ticket and travel to check out the machine. It's not much and if it looks great on the photos, and list of included parts, then the seller's reaction to a suggestion of a trip will tell you a great deal, and while visiting you can make sure it's actually dispatched at that time, and pre arrange that to happen, so you know what's been sent. You know what's been sent if you pack the boxes yourself!

Air tickets are not that expensive when compared to a machine itself.

My suggestion would be to 1) Do all your due diligence first, with photos, lists of stuff included, and perhaps a report from the local dealers office on the state of the machine. Ask for more custom photos, so you know they have the machine, and can take the photos. 2) Then take the trip, and finalize the deal on the spot, and make sure it's backed and shipped out when your there. It should only take a day or two.

I think that would cover all the bases.

Regards,

Grant

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#35910

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 4 August, 2005

Hi Rob,

he did not get back to me which I have to convince and explian to him why do I suggest this equipments. Low volume may use ike Yamaha or Juki. What I suggest to them is Fuji line with low cost but for future plan in the event he increase his volume. This way he wont waste his money for the investment. Hope I do explain well.

Regards Danny Hui

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Rob

#35911

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 4 August, 2005

Hi Danny,

Buying those machines would not have been low cost - the support, programming etc. is very expensive, and they are not easy machines to learn or repair. The machines wouldn't even be suitable for the future as they won't go below 0603 (1.6mm x0.8mm).

That doesn't even incude the programming software & support....or the space taken up.

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#35912

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 4 August, 2005

All good advise, guys. I somewhat blame myself, that I didn�t inspect the machine. On the other hand, who knows, what machine I would have seen. Here are some e-mail responses, indicating, that this is not the type of business I�m capable of doing myself.

How are you! Here are some explanation for the one day delay. Before we close the wood box with hammer, the Chinese Custom official must go to inspect these equipments for the export to Hong Kong. Today, when we complete to do the vacuum package, the time is 19:00 and the Chinese Custom had out of duty. So, we have to arrange to close the wood box tomorrow morning after the Custom official inspects them. Just now, I had sent you some photos for the vacuum package, you can see the time is too late when we complete to do vacuum package. For the export to Hong Kong, the safety is most important, so, we must show good face to Chinese Custom and make them happy, tonight, my partner will have a good entertainment with the Custom official.

How are you! Here are the answers for your questions: Question 1:Below is more information from Stefan. I was speaking with him just a few minutes ago and he told me 2 things that were interesting. 1) No serial #plate on the machine, it is missing Answer: In order to decrease the import Chinese Custom tax, When we import this equipments from Hong Kong, we take down the name plate and import the (modified) as (modified) Custom tax cost. I think this name plate is at my office, I will look and see. If I find it, I will send it to you.

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Rob

#35913

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 4 August, 2005

Life's about learning, you got one kick in the teeth & you'll never let it happen again. We all had bad experiences in the past - it's how we learn from them & factor that knowledge into future dealings.

We sold some kit to a chinese dealer recently - couldn't have been in better condition, and for a good price, yet they treated us like criminals until the kit was off our site - virtually sleeping with it after inspection to make sure we didn't touch it, remove things etc.

On the other hand there's people like Bob & Peter Brill who we've bought off & sold to, and we've never been stung, & neither party has had to even inspect anything.

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#35926

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 4 August, 2005

Hi,

Yes, and the best thing is you posted some info here on your experience, so we have all learnt from your experience, on what to do when purchasing second hand equpment from overseas.

Thanks for that.

Regards,

Grant

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#35929

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 5 August, 2005

Thanks to all of you and the power of this forum, I may get refunded ~ $ 30,000 for missing parts and cost of proper refurbishment. I�ll keep you updated.

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#35930

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 5 August, 2005

That's a good news and this show that China dealers are not as what other people views.

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RDR

#35931

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 5 August, 2005

Hopefully it didn't take a "night out for a good entertainment" to get this resolved. HaHa

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#35932

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 5 August, 2005

We have 5 engineers that we hire out who all come from the main smt oems and we hire these people out on request to view,report and recommend yes or knowon machines status parts missing, for that piece of mind its working out as a good business. But the best thing its like police we can root out bad business men and black list them.

Thanks

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#35962

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 8 August, 2005

Is there such a supply problem for used equipment that you have to source from China? ! What a nightmare !

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#36046

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 10 August, 2005

Unfortunately, I couldn�t get any money back from the dealer. I fear there are not many dealer, who would pay back. In respect to all the other dealers, who prefer to provide quality products and repeat business, I would like to mention, that following business doesn�t appear to deliver a certain quality standard: Intelligent Development Zhu Hai Co.,Ltd. Address: 2 Floor,Reminda Building, Nan Ping Science&Technology Industrial Park, Zhu Hai city, China. Web: http://www.idcn.com.cn

In order to narrow the term used and refurbished, I would say a used machine is been used but not abused. If the machine has been exposed to nature, because the building wasn�t quite finished when production started, windows, doors and roof were not delivered yet and the machine is corroded, than the machine is been damaged and can hardly be named used. From a used machine, I expect that the machine is been maintained, all parts of the machine, as it was delivered by the OEM are still there and functional and documents, which have a significant value (IEC, CE approval) are submitted. From a refurbished machine, at least I expect that the machine is been cleaned and tested. All missing and defective parts are been replaced. Corroded linear bearings are to be named defective and have to be replaced. If the part is defective, it automatically looses its title �used�. OEM�s also supply used refurbished machines. They even replace parts, which are not yet defective, such as: Flexible cables, brush-type DC motors, stepper motors and solenoids, dependent on how long the supplier warrants the parts. If, for example, the flex cables are warrant for 100 million movements, than they will be replaced, if the counter computes already 80 million movements. Of course the machines are professionally re-painted and the machines come with at least a 30 days parts warranty. I do agree, that these types of refurbishments require some special knowledge, but it doesn�t take very much to call the OEM and ask, which machine parts are been re-placed in a refurbishment job. In my native language, I find many more words for used and refurbished. I also assume, there may be more words in Mandarin. Nevertheless, the excuse from the dealer, that he doesn�t speak very well English and may have used the wrong word in refurbished is hard to accept.

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#36056

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 10 August, 2005

Thanks for the update. This company specialize in only Siemens machne and not other placement machine. Do not buy machine with the name of refurbshment as in Asia, this terms only valid for repaint and clean up job. Overhual of the machine should be used.

Anyway, thanks for open up to all that this company is not doing professionally.

Regards Danny Hui

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#36062

USED EQUIPMENT IN CHINA | 11 August, 2005

Stefen-

Sorry you did not get any money back but I told you you wouldn't. And it's good you listed the company name but they could fold up their tents and resurface under another name in a week so it won't do much good. I hope this hasn't soured you on used equipment because there are a lot of reputable companies out there that actually care about what they sell and stand behind it. Just remember that it's up to you to make the effort to determine who is good and who is not in this business and that not always the cheapest deal is the best deal.

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l

#36185

I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of things in this business! | 19 August, 2005

I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of these in the business with Stefan, and let all of the dealers know which kind of person the Stefan is!

For this used machine sales, we have invoice with Stefan and remark as follows(He had confirmed the invoice): 1, Used machine have no warranty. 2, NO any item say if customer does not satisfied with this machine, I will return any money to him.

I had invited Stefan and his partner come to China to inspect the machine for several times, but they did not come.

In my SMT plant in China, this used machine is working well and in our production correctly, so I have confidence o invite Stefan come to inspect this equipment, I did not cheat anybody at all in this business.

The nozzle changer is not standard configuration for this used machine, it is just an option. This machine just have IC head nozzle Changer. Stefan said that this equipment was dirty, maybe the clear standard is different between us, anyway, it is just a used machine in 1997 year.

When this used machine arrive USA, Stefan faced some issue during installation. He need some spare parts to test this equipment. In fact, it is not necessary for me to send any parts to him for testing equipment, but I do so in the whole installation process. In order to keep good relationship with him, we have very positive attitude to help him to solve problems.

I do not think Stefan have good personality. He put our private email on the web and let everyone see. You can image if your business friend list your business email on the web or another common place and let everyone see freely, how do you think about it?

So, clever people can judge who is right in this business, and who has good credit in business.

I feel so sad today to see these imputations from my business friend Stefan.

Thank you all!

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l

#36186

I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of things in this business! | 19 August, 2005

I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of these in the business with Stefan, and let all of the dealers know which kind of person the Stefan is!

For this used machine sales, we have invoice with Stefan and remark as follows(He had confirmed the invoice): 1, Used machine have no warranty. 2, NO any item say if customer does not satisfied with this machine, I will return any money to him.

I had invited Stefan and his partner come to China to inspect the machine for several times, but they did not come.

In my SMT plant in China, this used machine is working well and in our production correctly, so I have confidence o invite Stefan come to inspect this equipment, I did not cheat anybody at all in this business.

The nozzle changer is not standard configuration for this used machine, it is just an option. This machine just have IC head nozzle Changer. Stefan said that this equipment was dirty, maybe the clear standard is different between us, anyway, it is just a used machine in 1997 year.

When this used machine arrive USA, Stefan faced some issue during installation. He need some spare parts to test this equipment. In fact, it is not necessary for me to send any parts to him for testing equipment, but I do so in the whole installation process. In order to keep good relationship with him, we have very positive attitude to help him to solve problems.

I do not think Stefan have good personality. He put our private email on the web and let everyone see. You can image if your business friend list your business email on the web or another common place and let everyone see freely, how do you think about it?

So, clever people can judge who is right in this business, and who has good credit in business.

I feel so sad today to see these imputations from my business friend Stefan.

Thank you all!

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#36187

I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of things in this business! | 19 August, 2005

Unfortunately this is what happens when both the buyer and seller fail to take the necessary steps to insure a used equipment deal goes smoothly. Stefen fails to inspect what he is buying. Jack.....first impressions are 90% of the "battle" to satisfy the customer. You've got to at least clean the machine prior to shipping. I don't care if you're selling feeders or chipshooters, if you don't insure they are free of dust, oil and scrap components, the buyer will be disaapointed upon receipt of the equipment....well before they ever actually use it.

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liujh

#36188

I am Jack Liu | 19 August, 2005

The thing makes me very angry is that: When we communicated by EMAIL from August 3,2005 to negotiate how to help Stefan to solve the issues, Stefan has already post the thread ��used equipment from china�� on website http://www.smtnet.com and make imputation to me. In fact, I am cheated by Stefan, because I did not know what he did to me until today(August 19,2005) During this period, in order to show my truth and keep good relationship with Stefan, I had sent him three kinds of spare parts in two times, include the additional nozzle changer for RV head that Stefan need. Everyone can judge who is honest. Thank you all!

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#36189

I am Jack Liu | 19 August, 2005

The thing makes me very angry is that: When we communicated by EMAIL from August 3,2005 to negotiate how to help Stefan to solve the issues, Stefan has already post the thread ��used equipment from china�� on website http://www.smtnet.com and make imputation to me. In fact, I am cheated by Stefan, because I did not know what he did to me until today(August 19,2005) During this period, in order to show my truth and keep good relationship with Stefan, I had sent him three kinds of spare parts in two times, include the additional nozzle changer for RV head that Stefan need. Everyone can judge who is honest. Thank you all!

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