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Used Equipment from China

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I got my hands on a used, refurbished machine out of China, ... - Aug 03, 2005 by Stefan Witte  

#35861

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

I got my hands on a used, refurbished machine out of China, which didn�t look quite as advertised. Machine plates, logbooks and other documents are missing. According to the machine supplier, the plates are swapped from older machines to trick customs and reduce import tax. With some missing sensibility in what is right, it is very likely that the customer can be cheated as well. This machine was way overpriced and misrepresented.

Meanwhile I do know, that machines usually don�t operate in air conditioned rooms. As a result the machines can overheat and fail more often. Filter mats are removed because they clog and reduce the efficiency of the cooling fans.

Machine utilization in China is about 60 %. Troubleshooting the other 40 % machine breakdown time is apparently been reduced by removing safety switches, screws in control boards, cable covers and cable ties.

The machines are quite often used for designated jobs. As a result the board conveyer�s shafts and spindles, designed to change its width, were corroded on both sides of a �fixed� width. The machine�s nozzle changer was missing.

The touch screen monitor was replaced with a standard monitor and keyboard.

Stereotype response from the Chinese dealer: �We don�t need this in Central China�.

There was no sign of any PM whatsoever and the only visible refurbishment was a bad paint job. Linear bearings were not lubricated and heavily corroded. A thick layer of dust on electronic boards and inside the machine indicated that the dirt was vented into the machine due to the missing filter mats.

I do realize that it may be difficult for Chinese dealers to make a profit after government officials and unofficial officials are paid off. Nevertheless, our standards and expectations are much higher and machines like that are unacceptable.

The machines are too delicate to operate in above mentioned environment. With 90% board manufacturing in China, there is no significant other market for the machine supplier. This also means maybe we should start re-thinking our perception in quality and durability. As a machine designer, I recommend air-less and grease-less machines. If the machine requires too much explanation or maintenance to operate properly then it may be too complicated.

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#35864

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

Dear sir,

This is Danny Hui from VS Solution. May I know whom did you buy from in China?

Regards Danny Hui

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#35865

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

> I got my hands on a used, refurbished machine out > of China, which didn�t look quite as > advertised. Machine plates, logbooks and other > documents are missing. According to the machine > supplier, the plates are swapped from older > machines to trick customs and reduce import > tax. With some missing sensibility in what is > right, it is very likely that the customer can be > cheated as well. This machine was way overpriced > and misrepresented. > > Meanwhile I do know, that > machines usually don�t operate in air conditioned > rooms. As a result the machines can overheat and > fail more often. Filter mats are removed because > they clog and reduce the efficiency of the > cooling fans. > > Machine utilization in China is > about 60 %. Troubleshooting the other 40 % > machine breakdown time is apparently been reduced > by removing safety switches, screws in control > boards, cable covers and cable ties. > > The > machines are quite often used for designated > jobs. As a result the board conveyer�s shafts and > spindles, designed to change its width, were > corroded on both sides of a �fixed?width. The > machine�s nozzle changer was missing. > > The > touch screen monitor was replaced with a standard > monitor and keyboard. > > Stereotype response from > the Chinese dealer: �We don�t need this in > Central China? > > There was no sign of any PM > whatsoever and the only visible refurbishment was > a bad paint job. Linear bearings were not > lubricated and heavily corroded. A thick layer of > dust on electronic boards and inside the machine > indicated that the dirt was vented into the > machine due to the missing filter mats. > > I do > realize that it may be difficult for Chinese > dealers to make a profit after government > officials and unofficial officials are paid off. > Nevertheless, our standards and expectations are > much higher and machines like that are > unacceptable. > > The machines are too delicate to > operate in above mentioned environment. With 90% > board manufacturing in China, there is no > significant other market for the machine > supplier. This also means maybe we should start > re-thinking our perception in quality and > durability. As a machine designer, I recommend > air-less and grease-less machines. If the > machine requires too much explanation or > maintenance to operate properly then it may be > too complicated.

Dear sir,

This is Danny Hui from VS Solution. May I know whom did you buy from in China?

Regards Danny Hui

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???

#35866

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

Any and all equipment i have ever seen (or worked on) oversea's...and that includes most 3rd world countries including china..... they dont know what preventive maintenence is (or every day maintenence).......So anyone buying equipment from oversea's is taking a rather LARGE risk.

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Rob

#35868

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

I'm not sure that they would be too impressed by being refered to as the 3rd world in China.

China is huge, it covers all ends of the spectrum, including extremes. I've seen sweatshops that do no maintenance & an equal proportion of volume shops whose floor you could eat your dinner of off, and whose machines are a source of pride.

Equally, in the UK I could easily name and shame just as many customers who don't look after their kit than those who do.

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???

#35875

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

sorry china.....like it or not.....3rd world...

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Rob

#35876

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

What does that make Belgium then?

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#35878

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

Stefan, Was this machine a Fuji by chance ? Did you buy this machine ? If so why would you or anyone buy a machine sight unseen that is "way overpriced" Just curious..

I have been told by representatives of major SMT machine manufacturers to BEWARE of machines that have been shipped from overseas for the exact reasons you spoke of.

We buy A LOT of used equipment, and it is my experience that you need to follow these guidelines:

1. Never EVER buy a machine sight unseen.

2. Know the person you are buying from.

3. Make sure that there are clear documented agreements as to how the machine is going to be warrantied.(If at all)

4. Set it up so that the full amount of the money is not paid until your inspection when it arrives.

As for the condition of the machine you spoke about, there are three MAJOR things that will ruin a machine:

1. Dirty operating conditions. 2. Machines not being lubricated and wiped down periodically. 3. Clogged cooling fans

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???

#35879

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

4th world....or outta this world.......hahahahah.....

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Stefan

#35889

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

Thank you for the advise. It was not a Fuji machine. I sold quite a few pieces to this dealer, assuming that I would get the same kind of quality in return. I don't like to badmouth anybody particular not an entire country. However, the particular dealer wrote me after my complaint, that ALL the machines in China have a lower standard.

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#35891

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

This problem is not unique to China. Second user customers are always challenged to assess machine condition, upgradeability, service history etc. More often then not, candidate machines are located halfway around the world. Further complicating this, many companies do not have personel available to adequately assess the machine condition. It's not just a problem of second user gear purchase, often large companies transfer assets intra-company, rarely offering up the best running gear, usually transferring out the oldest and worst performing equipment. Universal offers a �Plus� Equipment Assessment Service to persons considering a second user gear purchase. Our factory trained service personel will travel onsite to evaluate the target machine condition. We will then issue a detailed report that describes machine condition, support status, available machine upgrades and recent service history. This service is available worldwide and has been used to assess third party held equipment, intra-company transfers, auction items etc. Details are available through your local Universal office. The following link will take you to our contacts page:http://www.uic.com/wcms/WCMS2.nsf/index/Contact_Us_94.html

Mike Cyr Universal Instruments Corporation Global Services Product Manager Cyr@UIC.com

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#35896

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

Mike,

Lets say I am a U.S. based company, and I wanted your organization to "assess" a machine in Malaysia. Could you give us folks a ball park figure of what that might cost ?

Doesn't have to be exact....Just a ball park figure........

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???

#35897

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

The machine you are buying is probably going to cost less than the service visit. Then with all the problems found......hmmmmm....could get real ugly.......shoulda just bought a new machine.....hahahhaa

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#35898

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

Our service prices are regionalized.In Malaysia the assessment price is $600 plus travel and expenses. Since we have service staff located in Singapore (easy drive to Johor etc.) and an office in Penang, I would not expect this to be too significant. Our local office would offer a more precise price. The assumption is that the machine is operable and that air and power are connected so that we can cycle and operate the gear. If you mail me off this forum, I�ll be happy to make the contacts for you or coordinate an assessment. Mike Cyr Universal Instruments Corporation Global Services Product Manager Cyr@UIC.com

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#35900

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

"> The machine you are buying is probably going to > cost less than the service visit. Then with all > the problems found......hmmmmm....could get real > ugly.......shoulda just bought a new > machine.....hahahhaa "

An assessment could suggest that a piece of gear is not worth investing in. This does happen. It can work the other way too. We had a recent situation with a US based machine buyer comparing second user gear located in Mexico with a refurbished machine being offered by our local sales engineer. Our assessment helped him to decide that the second user machine was a remarkable deal. We helped him install it and have since provided his staff with training and occasional support. Mike Cyr Universal Instruments Corporation Global Services Product Manager Cyr@UIC.com

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#35901

Used Equipment from China | 3 August, 2005

There are vast differences in the use of the word "refurbished" in reference to used equipment, ranging from the repaint job referenced by Stefan that some "dealers" offer, to what is generally offered by the original manufacturer that perhaps Mike referenced. It takes some degree of specialized knowledge to truly refurbish a machine and verify factory specifications.

Mike Foster Samsung

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#35927

Used Equipment from China | 4 August, 2005

Stefan

Who are the reputable suppliers of "air-less and grease-less machines"?

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#36048

Used Equipment from China | 10 August, 2005

Stefan, I am surprised that you have made a un-wise purchase. You need to keep your eye out for unreliable suppliers. Sounds like he just wanted your money, not a good business relationship.

Tommy

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Field service

#36051

Used Equipment from China | 10 August, 2005

Yea right $ 600 becomes $ 6000. Ask them what they charge for travel? Is it actually the cost or do they mark it up a couple thousands. Let's be honest here.

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#36061

Used Equipment from China | 11 August, 2005

It's not surprising at all if you are in the business like I am. Used buyers are only concerned about one thing....who's got the cheapest price. Stefen learned the hard way but he is certainly not the first or the last to experience this. Years ago in trying to set Fastek apart from the run of the mill brokers out there we decided that nothing would be sold unless it went through our shop....cleaned, tested under power etc. This wasn't a case of claiming "rebuilt or refurbished"...simply a way for customers to be able to come out and inspect the machines running so there wouldn't be any misunderstandings. They would get exactly what they expected. My point is this....every single customer is encouraged to fly out and look at the machine they want running. How many actually do this? About 1 in 10. Amazing to me that a company won't spend $600 in due diligence over a $100,000 machine. That's why people continually get burned in this business. In 2 years all equipment will be coming from Asia and the problem will only get worse. Take my advice...if you're shopping for used equipment and you can't find it in the US...buy new.

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#36075

Used Equipment from China | 11 August, 2005

Fastek,

In my opinion.. The thing that would make me confident, and/or attracted to a used machine sale is a money back guarantee. Some type of solid contract in writing that states a warrantee/guarantee agreement.

This cuts the B.S. instantly.

When someone risk the chance of losing their $$ they become honest real quick.

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#36077

Used Equipment from China | 11 August, 2005

Sr. Tech-

Warranties and guarantees are not necessary if the buyer does his homework.....personally inspects the machine, gets referrals on the seller etc. The other problem is enforcement issues. Can you imagine the hassle on your hands if an overseas seller broke their contract agreement and you as the buyer tried to enforce it through legal channels?

What would a money back guarantee entail? If the buyer is not satisfied with the unit then they are entitled to a refund? What does satisfied mean? This is used equipment remember...not a brand new machine.

The thing to remember is the liabilty in this whole arrangement is on the buyer and if the buyer is not willing to take the simple and inexpensive steps to insure they are getting a solid piece of equipment, then shame on them. There are many reputable used equipment dealers out there with facilities at hand to fully test and demonstrate a complete and running machine that the buyer can visit and inspect. Buying from companies such as this should eliminate any concerns the buyer should have. If a buyer chooses to save $5,000 on a $100,000 machine buy buying a machine located in a warehouse China that they have never seen and are unwilling to inspect....from someone they don't even know....they won't get my sympathy when the machine turns out to be junk.

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#36101

Used Equipment from China | 12 August, 2005

The point I am trying to make is that I don't have to personally fly out and inspect the machine and screw around if there is a money back guarantee. The seller is not going to sell me a piece of crap if he knows he may end up replacing parts and or reimbursing me for whatever is wrong.

As far as legal stuff overseas goes.....I would never buy a machine from overseas unless I personally knew the person I was buying from.

Satisfied means that the machine works exactly as represented by the seller. It is the responsibility of the buyer to make sure that everyone�s definition of what is acceptable is clearly understood BEFORE any transactions are made.

No one is going to convince me that someone who sells used SMT equipment does not know what the difference is between a piece of shit and a good machine.

This thing of sales guys/brokers acting like they are clueless when a machine they sell you falls apart in two days is nothing but dishonesty. If you as a used equipment seller cannot tell the difference between junk and good, then they do not belong in the business.... Dishonesty will get you in the black book "with the quickness" as they say.

In short: Someone who is willing to stand behind what they sell gets my vote immediately.(warrantee/guarantee)

There are places out there that do stand behind their machines. For Example : IBE in Texas.. They are straight up.

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#36102

Used Equipment from China | 12 August, 2005

Well....I'm not sure what you exactly mean or expect in a "money back guarantee" but I will tell you this....it's simply not going to happen with a used machine. The phrase I use when selling a machine is "complete and operational"...which means the machine is not missing any parts and it is a running machine when it leaves my facility. This way of doing business has worked for me all these years. Never a problem. Now here's some issues taking this another step forward and why warranties/guarantees are a dangerous dilema for the seller. First is transportation and set-up. By providing a guarantee as you say, the seller is all of a sudden responsible for the following: Poor handling by the trucking company, poor handling during removal and set up at the buyer's facility or poor installation at the buyer's facility including potential major electrical issues if the buyer messes up applying power to the machine. I've seen this happen by the way. So the seller is now liable for all these issues I suppose? Another issue: Let's say the seller gives the buyer a 2 month guarantee the machine will perform correctly and the buyer has no training or experience with this machine. The first day they try to run it an operator does something negligent and causes $15,000 of damage to the feeder carriage. Is the seller responsible for that? He shouldn't be but he will be according to your guarantee scenario. The third problem with providing guarantees is the cost of spare parts for some of these machines. Let's talk about a chipshooter for example that sold new for $600,000...but has sold used to a buyer 10 years later for $75,000. Now to spend $12,000 to replace the feeder carriage servo amp is not much of a hit for the company that paid $600K for the machine. However, for the company that only invested $75K into this machine...this represents almost 20% of the entire investment....and most certainly would wipe out any profit the seller had in this deal. Would it be fair for the buyer to insist the seller pay for an item like this that failed 30 days after receiving the machine? I wouldn't think so.

See...much of the problems that arise in used equipment sales revolves around perceptions. Typically the buyer wants to pay .30 cents on the dollar for a machine and still expects a factory like warranty. That way they have no risk in the deal....and hence that is why these machines are "typically" not sold with these type of guarantees. Aside from the above reasons there are many more factors involved. Why do you think the OEM's when selling a new machine use their own trucking companies and their own personel to set up the units at the customer's facilities? Because they are warranting these machines and they are not going to take the chance that something like explained above occurs.

Finally....I'll clear up the difference between "brokers" and "dealers".

Brokers in this business rarely if ever either take possession of the machine they are selling or actually even see the machine they are selling. They are simply putting buyers and sellers together and make a small margin of profit in the deal. The problems that will occur regarding perceptions and expectations from the buyers point of view will obviously increase dramtically if the seller/broker has never even seen the machine himself.

Dealers such as myself and the mentioned IBE actually own the equipment they are selling in most cases and have gone through the machines in their own facility...inspected, tested, cleaned etc. and therefore are willing to stand behind them a heck of a lot more than a broker could.

So in summary...from a buyers point of view I'm sure it would be great to be able to pick up a $600,000 machine at $75,000 and also get a better than factory warranty called a "money back guarantee" thrown in on the deal. This way there is absolutely no risk on their part and they wouldn't have to worry about inspecting it or anything. That's not the real world in this business however and the risk in buying a used machine needs to be spread out a little more evenly for both the buyer and the seller to walk away happy in the deal. And that's what its really all about isn't it?

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Just a Viewer

#36106

Used Equipment from China | 12 August, 2005

Is IBE where you work Sr. Tech???

I thought this man said he trusted the other seller/buyer from oversea because he has been sold good and running condition equipment to that same dealer. However, what he got was a scrap machine (sound like). And is someone is going to loose business soon by... selling bad stuff.

And, I thought a while back there was a reminder note in this web which saysssssss..... Do not deal with the people you don't know ..... $$$ will be gooo goooo gooone.

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#36113

Used Equipment from China | 13 August, 2005

No I do not work for IBE.

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Rob

#36119

Used Equipment from China | 15 August, 2005

Purely out of interest & to satisfy my curiosity:

Fact: China has been importing huge amounts of SMT equipment due to it's rapid expansion, bringing in used equipment from Europe, US & just about everywhere else, at a not insignificant cost.

Question: If a used machine in good condition became available in China, surely the home market would absorb it immediately? The only reason's I can think of that they would not be able to sell it locally would be if it was total crap or far too expensive.

If it was too expensive it wouldn't be a good deal for export, therefore....?

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#36125

Used Equipment from China | 15 August, 2005

Based on the amount of equipment I am seeing available in China for sale, my guess is China is suffering from over capacity issues at the this time. I could be wrong but it doesn't appear the world wide board assembly economy is anything but flat.

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#36138

Used Equipment from China | 16 August, 2005

> sorry china.....like it or not.....3rd > world...

Technically, China is a 2nd world country.

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l

#36183

I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of things in this business! | 19 August, 2005

I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of these in the business with Stefan, and let all of the dealers know which kind of person the Stefan is!

For this used machine sales, we have invoice with Stefan and remark as follows(He had confirmed the invoice): 1, Used machine have no warranty. 2, NO any item say if customer does not satisfied with this machine, I will return any money to him.

I had invited Stefan and his partner come to China to inspect the machine for several times, but they did not come.

In my SMT plant in China, this used machine is working well and in our production correctly, so I have confidence o invite Stefan come to inspect this equipment, I did not cheat anybody at all in this business.

The nozzle changer is not standard configuration for this used machine, it is just an option. This machine just have IC head nozzle Changer. Stefan said that this equipment was dirty, maybe the clear standard is different between us, anyway, it is just a used machine in 1997 year.

When this used machine arrive USA, Stefan faced some issue during installation. He need some spare parts to test this equipment. In fact, it is not necessary for me to send any parts to him for testing equipment, but I do so in the whole installation process. In order to keep good relationship with him, we have very positive attitude to help him to solve problems.

I do not think Stefan have good personality. He put our private email on the web and let everyone see. You can image if your business friend list your business email on the web or another common place and let everyone see freely, how do you think about it?

So, clever people can judge who is right in this business, and who has good credit in business.

I feel so sad today to see these imputations from my business friend Stefan.

Thank you all!

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l

#36184

I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of things in this business! | 19 August, 2005

I am Jack Liu, I must clarify all of these in the business with Stefan, and let all of the dealers know which kind of person the Stefan is!

For this used machine sales, we have invoice with Stefan and remark as follows(He had confirmed the invoice): 1, Used machine have no warranty. 2, NO any item say if customer does not satisfied with this machine, I will return any money to him.

I had invited Stefan and his partner come to China to inspect the machine for several times, but they did not come.

In my SMT plant in China, this used machine is working well and in our production correctly, so I have confidence o invite Stefan come to inspect this equipment, I did not cheat anybody at all in this business.

The nozzle changer is not standard configuration for this used machine, it is just an option. This machine just have IC head nozzle Changer. Stefan said that this equipment was dirty, maybe the clear standard is different between us, anyway, it is just a used machine in 1997 year.

When this used machine arrive USA, Stefan faced some issue during installation. He need some spare parts to test this equipment. In fact, it is not necessary for me to send any parts to him for testing equipment, but I do so in the whole installation process. In order to keep good relationship with him, we have very positive attitude to help him to solve problems.

I do not think Stefan have good personality. He put our private email on the web and let everyone see. You can image if your business friend list your business email on the web or another common place and let everyone see freely, how do you think about it?

So, clever people can judge who is right in this business, and who has good credit in business.

I feel so sad today to see these imputations from my business friend Stefan.

Thank you all!

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#36190

I am Jack Liu | 19 August, 2005

The thing makes me very angry is that: When we communicated by EMAIL from August 3,2005 to negotiate how to help Stefan to solve the issues, Stefan has already post the thread ��used equipment from china�� on website http://www.smtnet.com and make imputation to me. In fact, I am cheated by Stefan, because I did not know what he did to me until today(August 19,2005) During this period, in order to show my truth and keep good relationship with Stefan, I had sent him three kinds of spare parts in two times, include the additional nozzle changer for RV head that Stefan need. Everyone can judge who is honest. Thank you all!

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