Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


A.O.I recommendation

HI, Can anyone recommend good AOI which is able to ins... - May 20, 2005 by

... - May 29, 2005 by

LUPO

#34371

A.O.I recommendation | 20 May, 2005

HI,

Can anyone recommend good AOI which is able to inspect solder joints, We fix on ROBOTECH, OMRON and AGILENT. Have anyone expirience with some of them. For example OROBOTECH offer us machine with 13 cameras, but this sounds me like: waste of time for maintenance and programming. Which machine do you recommend?

Regards

reply »

#34385

A.O.I recommendation | 21 May, 2005

Hi Lupo,

Since I am an Orbotech rep, I believe it will be more appropriate if I offer my opinion through an offline discussion.

If you're interested, please contact me.

Regards Erhan

ekaya@kumtek.com

reply »


Rob

#34408

A.O.I recommendation | 23 May, 2005

Hi Lupo,

The MVT Supras we had far out performed the Omron systems on fault detection & false calls, and were nearly 1/3 of the price. But it depends also on what operator skill & dilligence you have to make sure the data goes in accurately & is treated well.

Number of cameras is not a measure of how good a system is - we looked at a certain system that had around 18 cameras and still had shadowing issues. Get a demo with your hardest board, and if the vendor says the programming cycle is very short, send nothing in advance & bring a stopwatch with your boards.

From what I've seen of them the Agilent SJ50's look good, just make sure you get them to commit to long term support for the system.

reply »

jdumont

#34410

A.O.I recommendation | 23 May, 2005

Anyone with experience with the Mirtec's....

reply »

#34425

A.O.I recommendation | 23 May, 2005

hi jdumont: kindly detail your need. vera vera@comofaje.com www.comofaje.com

reply »

RB

#34431

A.O.I recommendation | 24 May, 2005

We do have experience whit the Mirtec. We have a Viscome and a Mirtec. We are very satisfied over the Mirtec.

reply »

#34437

A.O.I recommendation | 24 May, 2005

I have experience with Mirtec, and overall I think it actually performed better than advertised. Although I have to point AFAIK all AOI machines are operator dependant. I was working at a company with around 8 runs a day, and such variety and ECO's that on the production machines we always used freshly made programs. We could program a new board on the Mirtec in around 20 minutes or so. And sometimes use it to check the first off. Mirtec will tell you, you need a golden board, but if you are teaching a new board that already has all the parts in the library, it is good to teach a board that you want to check. ( I hope everyone can follow that)

I would strongly recommend that it is installed about two weeks before being fully used. It will be worth it to take it slow at first to carefully build up the library.

reply »

CLampron

#34509

A.O.I recommendation | 26 May, 2005

Good Morning,

We have several Mirtec table top machines. We bought the first one when it was under the Samsung name. We had the advantage of doing a side by side comparison with several other systems. The Mirtec was the leader in performance. Since our initial purchase, we have transitioned from using it to verify first piece to a 100% post reflow inspect. We have increased our yield dramatically as we use it as a proces monitoring tool as opposed to just an inspector. Our number of missing, wrong value and wrong polarity components has almost dissapeared. The systems bridge detection is incredible. I had a call once for a bridge that I could not see. When I checked it under the microscope, there was a hair through several solder joints. We do not use the solder joint inspection as the exclusive verification for solder joint quality. With the Mirtec, as with most AOI systems, the solder joint inspection is based on a light reflective process. We feel that this is too subjective to not inspect manually. We do use the solder inspector on the AOI in conjunction with manual inspection. Between the both, we are able to identify almost all defects.

Bottom line is that we are very happy with this machine.

AOI is an important proces enhancement. Do you homework. I would suggest a demo for all manufacturers being considered with you own board. Look for ease of programming, false call rate, ease of debugging. After it is programmed, inspect a "bugged" board and see if the system is able to identify the bugg.

Base you decision from that.

Good Luck

CLampron

reply »

HOSS

#34535

A.O.I recommendation | 26 May, 2005

Has anyone compared Mirtech with Yestech? I've done a demo with both machines using our own board and data and found that the Yestech was easier and took less time to program but that's a pretty small sample.

Any input appreciated.

reply »

#34540

A.O.I recommendation | 26 May, 2005

Mirtec goes head-to-head with YEStech at prospective customers often these days. Contact Mirtec for results at those prospects and for references:

http://www.mirtec.com/eng/html/corporation.html

reply »

#34548

A.O.I recommendation | 26 May, 2005

I have been comparing Mirtec to Yestech on a regular basis. As a AOI trainer and installer, I have seen significant difference between the machines.

1. In a side by side comparison just today, using the same board, I found the following:

a. Inspection time for the same board was 1/3 less than the Yestech. b. After initial programming, the Yestech had over 200 false calls, The Mirtec 27. 70% of those false calls on the Yestech were solder inspections. c. As far as programming goes, Mirtec is one of the most user friendly interfaces you can find.

Please let me know if you need any more information.

reply »

#34549

A.O.I recommendation | 26 May, 2005

Please let me know how I can help you with Mirtec questions.

reply »

FFagundes

#34575

A.O.I recommendation | 27 May, 2005

I think I have everyone beat. I work for a small Contract Manufacturer, and we are trying to grow our business. We generally have two or 3 different jobs running at the same time and up to 10 different jobs running in a day. So we needed to find a machine that was extremely simple to program and was extremely flexible. Since we don�t do final test or IC testing we really rely upon the optical inspection to make sure the parts are where they need to be. I am head of the mechanical assembly area and director of quality and the only degreed engineer on site, we have 3 other guys with technical degrees here also. I was tasked with finding the right AOI machine for our business, with emphasis on solder joint detection. There has to be about 20 different AOI machines on the market divided into 2 categories. All the machines that are listed we demo'd. The first are the strictly algorithm based. These are the Agilent, Omron, Landrix (Teradyne) machines. What these machines are really set up for is there ability to handle larger dedicated runs, i.e. in the 1000 piece or more runs. Agilent is almost on the borderline of these machines. They have tried to really simplify the programming process. But there is still considerably more that goes into programming then the image based system. They are also considerably slower due to the amount of calculations they do on each inspection. The other two you really need to have a semi-dedicated line to run. There is some serious programming that needs to happen on these two.

The second set was the imaged based systems. The N'Spec, YesTech, and the Mirtec. These machines are very similar in their ability to perform absence/presence, skew, identify parts. Where the line became fuzzier was the ability to do solder inspection. All 3 of these machines claim to do solder inspection, and all have similar claims on how they do it. They all are using the two different lights and a technique of taking photos with both and then doing a subtraction algorithm to compare the images they get an image of reflection. We went to a place that had a 4 YesTech machines and they were not using the solder inspection. Which we though was fishy, since he was a "power user". The programming interface was good and very quick. (We had them program one of our simple boards, it was a 7 component board on a 10 by 10 tray of boards. We used this tray as a gage at each of the sites to compare the programming. Not to mention it was worth it to see what the reaction of the operators and engineers was when you asked them to program it for you.) And how it did reporting was very good also. The thing that left us very uneasy was the fact that the machines they had had multiple cameras but they were only using one and the fact they were not using the solder inspection. The thing that killed the N'Spec was it was Apple based and since I also do some of the IT stuff here I did not feel comfortable enough with this fact, trying to deal with the software interface, since you have to convert to MS protocol to save to the network, maybe not as big of a deal as I think but I would rather save direct to the server then try to do a conversion first. I think this may have been just as good and maybe even have an edge but the whole Apple thing is a severe detractor in my book. We ended up going with the Mirtec. When we went to the site the engineer that took us through the machine was great. The interface for programming was even better then the YesTech especially the ability to drag and drop components from the library into locations on the board.

After we had demo�d the machines at various customer sites and spoken to people who had each of the different machines. We narrowed it down to the Mirtec and the Agilent machines. We took a trip to see an Agilent Machine with a run of our parts, had to go there because the machine is quite large. We wanted to see how the machine would handle the programming, and after 2 hours there they were still taking us through their set-up and interface and had not programmed a part. Mirtec came to our site set up in about 20 minutes and was off and programming. By the end of the day 3 of us had learned the interface and all knew how to run/program the machine, including an operator. We had also run 2 lots of boards, which had gone through final inspection, and found 5 solder defects and 3 placement defects out of about 150 boards. These defects were so slight that the human eye with magnification wouldn�t have picked it up. Our owner placed an order for 2 that day. The only problem that we have to this point is our ability to program, no fault of the machine or software, but we are getting better, we went with medium to low settings for most of the criteria and are slowly bumping it up, this is just learning curve stuff, since we have only had the machines for about 3 months, most customers ask for class 2 but are expecting class 3. The other issue we had was the operator was not doing due diligence to inspecting the issued flagged by the machine and letting stuff go that shouldn�t have left here. The machine did a good job with the reporting tools to show us this.

You really need to identify your need and make sure you get the best machine for it. If you have a dedicatied line spend the extra and go for the agilent or other machines. If you need flexibilty and ease of use stay image based. I bet even on some dedicated lines the imaged based will most likely be better then some of the more expensive algorithm based machines. Not to mention ROI is easier to justify for 70,000 then 140,000 and up. Sorry if this is fragmented or doesn�t make sense in parts, just tried to spend minimal time to convey what I had found.

Fred Fagundes ffagundes@vrindustries.com www.vrindustries.com

reply »

#34580

A.O.I recommendation | 27 May, 2005

I found the Mirtec got faster and faster to program the longer we had it. Both from a learning curve point of view and a building the library point of view. And it was reasonably fast to program at the start anyways.

reply »

#34603

A.O.I recommendation | 27 May, 2005

Please visit our site for more information. Our Engineers can set up training at your location or our training facility. www.solocmusa.com

Regards, Gary

reply »

#34607

A.O.I recommendation | 27 May, 2005

I am almost hesitant to mention my good fortune with our Yestech system, for fear that our advantage in the industry will be known. We have run a Yestech for about a year, the operator interface is very well organized. Data is scanned on the machine and reviewed either on the machine or at one of our 5 off-line review stations. I will say that AOI units are not magic boxes, you get out of them what effort you put into them. Use them as process improvement devices, not a magic machine to catch all your mistakes.

reply »

Stephen

#34621

A.O.I recommendation | 29 May, 2005

Stephen

#34622

A.O.I recommendation | 29 May, 2005

> I will say that AOI units are not > magic boxes, you get out of them what effort you > put into them. Use them as process improvement > devices, not a magic machine to catch all your > mistakes.

Mirtec's come close though, but you are right about getting back whatyou put into them. Personally I would reccommend getting an AOI machine about a month before you are going to put into full use. And to not to push the learning curve too hard, and to be very carefull teaching new parts into the library.

reply »

#34689

A.O.I recommendation | 2 June, 2005

I agree with Steven. I have been involved with AOI for over 18 years. I was first introduced to it when I worked for Solectron. The AOI machines back then were more or less used as a selling item and very cumbersome to use. I have used and or operated almost every AOI in the industry. Working in contract assembly I have found that the Omron System is excellent but not practical for contract use. Take to long to program and in contract assembly you have mintues to an hour to program not days. I have used and or evaluated bothe the Mirtec System and the YesTech system. What I have found is that both systems are almost identical in programming. I found areas of the YesTech that I like more than the Mirtec and vise versa. I don't think a company could go wrong buying wither of these systems. But if you are using it for primarily solder inspection then don't buy either system. Solder inspection at best is about 60% accurate on these machines. Most of your false failures are do to solder inspection. Use the machine for what they are designed primarily for looking for wrong, missing, reversed, and mis aligned. That will get you the most bang for your buck. Never depend on any AOI for complete solder inspection. There are to many anomolies.

reply »


Rob

#34697

A.O.I recommendation | 2 June, 2005

Hi Kyle,

Although I agree in principle with what you say, we were getting exellent solder joint inspection on reasonably high density boards (approx 1000 components from 0402 to finepitch QFP's). However obviously they wouldn't touch any form of BGA (but we never had any issues there anyway) & were a bit of a pig to program - usually a couple of days, so were only worth it for volume business.

reply »

SB

#34811

A.O.I recommendation | 8 June, 2005

Lupo,

Omron AOI systems are definitely the best and most accurate, with the exception of there desktop system which is poor in comparison. They used to be very expensive , but I believe their new models are well priced. If you want solder joint inspection then look no further than Omron.

reply »

No B

#34814

A.O.I recommendation | 8 June, 2005

Wow SB..thanks for the input and reply to this thread. Let us know what teritory you cover so we can assure you get part of the commission. Makes me want to purchase 3 units right away.

reply »


Rob

#34815

A.O.I recommendation | 8 June, 2005

We ran an MVT 1820 Supra against a VT-Win-II for around 40K high density boards. One machine was 1/3 of the price of the other, more accurate in production, faster, and could handle larger boards.

Guess which won?

Fortunately we were able to look further than Omron on this occaision.

reply »

Paul

#34945

A.O.I recommendation | 14 June, 2005

We evaluated several machines a couple of years ago and ended up selecting an Agilent SJ50. Fast machine but very limited on joint inspection. Also does not detect missing components reliably which you would normally take as a given on an AOI system. Finally, I have to say Agilent, as a support company, do not impress. Not even a little bit.

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

reply »

#34995

A.O.I recommendation | 16 June, 2005

Hi Fred, Were you able to develop enough confidence with the AOI to eliminate manual visual inspections and save money/time? How did you manage this and still get good solder joint quality? Thanks, George

reply »

#35025

A.O.I recommendation | 17 June, 2005

I have been working with the Yestech system in my facility after evaluating the Mirtec. The yestech system has far less false calls and better defect coverage based on the test vehicles I ran. The YTV-1000 out performed the Mirtec in defect detection / program and set up time.

Our quality department and operator are really happy.

reply »

MMunos

#35032

A.O.I recommendation | 20 June, 2005

We have 3 inline Yestech systems in our facility. One system being used pre reflow for paste inspection and the other two for parts and solder. The systems work great for paste inspection (Better than what the sales guy told us). They are also very good for the final inspection. We are doing 100% inspection now and we have found a good point on where our false calls are close to 0%. We evaluated Mirtec before buying these systems and discovered that the sales guy and engineer were not being fare and were changing the scores really low to apparent low false call rate. This is something that Yestech was not doing. We bought Yestech and after 6 months we are very satisfied with the machines and support.

reply »

Matt

#35035

A.O.I recommendation | 20 June, 2005

Has anyone done a head to head evaluation of Orbotech and YESTech in-line machines. What did you choose and why?

Thanks, Matt

reply »

Steve

#35038

A.O.I recommendation | 20 June, 2005

Although I am sure that some of the postings here are legitimate, it is obvious that many of them have been written by AOI manufacturers or suppliers. This forum is meant to be a communication channel for process engineers, not salesmen. Please save your sales material for the trade magazines.

I have several years of experience with optical inspection. In my experience, the best way to ensure that you are getting the best system for your application is to put the system to the test with your own board. Most AOI manufacturers would be happy to run a demo with your assembly. Have them program your board in front of you so you know how long it will take and how complicated the program creation process will be. Also, prepare a few boards with a variety of defects and test the system's capabilities. Do not let the vendor know which components are defective as it is easy for a vendor to change the parameters to catch those defects. Do not believe everything that you read, have them prove the system�s capability.

Steve

reply »


PCI

#35049

A.O.I recommendation | 21 June, 2005

> Although I am sure that some of the postings here > are legitimate, it is obvious that many of them > have been written by AOI manufacturers or > suppliers. This forum is meant to be a > communication channel for process engineers, not > salesmen. Please save your sales material for > the trade magazines. > > I have several years of > experience with optical inspection. In my > experience, the best way to ensure that you are > getting the best system for your application is > to put the system to the test with your own > board. Most AOI manufacturers would be happy to > run a demo with your assembly. Have them program > your board in front of you so you know how long > it will take and how complicated the program > creation process will be. Also, prepare a few > boards with a variety of defects and test the > system's capabilities. Do not let the vendor > know which components are defective as it is easy > for a vendor to change the parameters to catch > those defects. Do not believe everything that > you read, have them prove the system�s > capability. > > Steve

what do you think for schneider and koch system

reply »

dougs

#35071

A.O.I recommendation | 22 June, 2005

We started looking at tabletop AOI systems last year, one of the main criteria, as we are a SC was that the sales engineer programmed one of our boards in front of us so we could see just how easy to program it was, also high on the list was performance in finding faults and false call rate, after looking at many machines we settled on a shortlist of 2, the MVP GEM and the MIRTEC, both were good, the MIRTEC was easy to program, whereas the MVP is a bit more time consuming, but the MVP blows the MIRTEC away of machine performance, we ended up buying it, the first week we had it MVP's engineer came in and set up a few programs for us as part of our training. I was amazed at some of the faults it was finding. The solder fault detection is first class. I'd still recommend the MIRTEC though, i think they have good service and the machine itself is pretty good, but for us the performance of the MVP was the deciding factor as we don't always have the opportunity to test boards so it's sometimes left to visual inspection to find all our SMT faults.

Anyway, to choose your machine, make sure you get to see the process of programming it first hand, we threw out any companies that wanted us to send info down for them to prepare. Choose what you want it to be able to do, e.g. solder inspection, placement, missing etc. make sure the service from the engineers is good, it's very handy to always have them at the end of the phone when your first trying to learn about the machine.

reply »

BTaylor

#35103

A.O.I recommendation | 22 June, 2005

I agree with steve. With so many vendors advertising to be the best, it is critical to have a "real time" demonstration on your product. Take a few good boards and a few defect boards along with the necessary data to the demo. Don't allow any programming before your demonstration so that you can see the entire process required to create a machine program.

Both Yestech and Mirtec advertise similar capabilities and were within our budget. However, after attending real time demos on both systems, our choice was Yestech. Their program time was very fast and required virtually no fine tuning before running the defect boards. They were able to find all of our known defects and actually found 2 that we weren't even aware of. We are currently investigating methods for product tracking (ie. barcodes) and liked the flexibility of the Yestech to adapt to whatever method we choose. They also include software updates in the base price of their machines.

Hope this helps with your AOI search...

B.T.

reply »

CMiller

#35115

A.O.I recommendation | 23 June, 2005

I have owned an Agilent SJ-10 and currently a YesTech machine.

I dont know about any other manufacturers but I can tell you Agilents support left a lot to be desired. I dont know if it is the people or the company but I have major issues with the way we were treated just trying to get a version of software that fixed the known bugs. I struggle with someone trying to charge me to fix a known defect in thier product. They also promised free software upgrades for life at the time of sale and then decided that is not in thier best interest after the fact. I did not care about the upgrades so much as just trying to get a version of software that worked properly.

I have owned a YesTech machine for a year and a half. Thier support has been better than any other vendor I have ever worked with. They only had a few machines in the field when we bought ours. The way we are treated has not changed one bit as they have grown, and they have grown a lot. I have met a number of thier employees and they have all been great. You should not need to talk to them very often but they are there for you when you do.

reply »

#41826

A.O.I recommendation | 26 May, 2006

We looked at YESTech and found that they not only lowered their inspections scores to decrease their high false call rate, but more importantly they missed actual failures. In the big picture, I would rather have the chance to look at something and determine if it false or not than let actual mistakes go out the door and end up in the customer's hands.

We did buy the Mirtec. We did not have to lower any scores as you have suggested and we catch the mistakes before they leave the building. Mirtec has been the best investment we have made in terms of ROI for equipment purchases.

reply »

FPC* - Fluid Pressure Control - Dispensing Pump

Thermal warpage test services