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UP1500 Frame Sizes?

jh0n!

#34000

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 2 May, 2005

We recently bought a used MPM UP1500 to upgrade from a manual DeHaart printer we'd been using for years. On the DeHaart, all of our stencils were 15" square. We purchased at auction a stencil adapter for an MPM printer (ie: 29" wide), however it's only 24" deep. When trying to load, print, etc - despite changing the total stencil depth (y) to 24", it seems as though the machine is constantly looking for a 29" stencil - based on where it drops the pins to load/unload/locate, and where the squeegees come down to print. In both cases, they're always about 5" back.

Anyone have any relevant information to share?

Thx in advance. :) -john.

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pr

#34005

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 2 May, 2005

We are using a UP2000 so I'm not positive on this but.... The squeegee stroke will have to be taught by and the software will walk you through setting the stroke. What do you mean by "where it drops the pins to load/unload/locate"? If you follow the teach new board steps I think you'll get rid of most of the problems. Watch out for the stencil wipe, we had some problems with the adapted stencils when wiping.

good luck, pr

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pr

#34006

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 2 May, 2005

Sorry, go to "Utilities" pull down menu then "set stroke" and the software will walk you through it.

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jh0n!

#34007

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 2 May, 2005

Unfortunately, we don't have that option under Utilities. Must be UP-2000 specific. I've set everything up correctly, multiple times...All the right dimensions, etc, taught fids, and it still tries to load the board in the wrong position. As far as what I meant by where it drops the pins...when loading, unloading, and positioning the stencil, two pins drop from the print carriage - these pins are dropping ON to our adaptor, instead of in front of it, as they do with a 29" stencil. Interestingly enough, it's roughly a 5" offset, as well - the difference between our adaptor length (24") and the normal 29". This is all despite it being dimensioned as 24" in the stencil setup.

Yerg.

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MikeaJ

#34014

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 2 May, 2005

The answer you are looking for is part of your initial setup of the board and stencil. This information is to be found in the PCB setup menu/icon. The reason why the stencil loading pins are impacting the frame is because the default setting of the software assumes a 29x29 stencil. Open your PCB setup menu (First icon on the bottom row of icons). Define your board size, and indicate your fiducials accordingly. You should notice a tab at the top of the window noted "stencil". Click on this tab to bring you to the stencil setup page. Click on the create button. You will see an image of a stencil appear with offset dimensions that add up to a 29" stencil. Now if you look carefully, you will notice that you can modify these measurements with ease. simply click or double click in the desired field. You may then enter the value of your choice. In your case, I recommend changing the value of the frame size from 1.97"(2.00") to 5.00". This should clear up the issue you are having, or bring you closer to a solution. To test your results, simply use the load and optimize buttons in this menu to see your hard earned results. If you have the original UP500/UP1500 stencil frame adapter, ensure you are centered as possible, or you will find yourself needing to change the image location on the stencil in your setup. The reasoning behind changing the frame size is that the machine assumes you must have a 29x29 stencil, how else would the frame rails support it? If further required, the print stroke positioning, and stroke length may be modifed accordingly through print setup. If you have a different type of adapter, you will need to measure as required. If you possess a frame adapter meant for AP/UP2k/UP3k machines, it will collide with your paste dispenser if your machine is so equipped. Machining a groove for clearance will solve the issue.The settings you change in the stencil setup are file related, the machine defaults are not changed. If you will be running into this quite often, you may want to create your own default file, and use it as your foundation to build new board files. If you have any further questions or require further clarification, please feel free to ask.

Mike

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MikeaJ

#34016

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 2 May, 2005

I forgot to mention one key detail. This goes against the typical thought process when confronted with the above mentioned dilemma. The stencil depth/size must remain at 29". You must lie to the machine and pretend to have a 29" stencil with a 5" frame. Give it a shot, I have seen it in action more times than I can count.

Best of luck,

Mike

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jh0n!

#34025

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 3 May, 2005

I appreciate the detailed reply. However, I had tried dimensioning the stencil to everything imaginable, including the correct/measured dimensions.

Interestingly enough, after loading a new stencil into our adaptor, I had no errors with the new program. The only difference between the two was the space between the PCB on the stencil - the new one was centered with 5" or so clearance on all sides, whereas the problematic one had just over 1.5" clearance - not enough room for the stencils to clear without coming down on the epoxy - another problem in and of itself.

Since we're going to have to have those stencils re-cut (as we need to open addtl. fiducials) anyhow - in moving to a 29" stencil, I think our problem will be solved.

Does that behavior make any sense, however? I can't understand why the PCB to frame edge dimension would interfere with loading/positioning correctly...

Thanks a million!

-john.

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MikeaJ

#34037

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 3 May, 2005

If your image is not defined properly, it will affect positioning and optimization. You can choose center, rear or front image justification. If your values are grossly off, your positioning will be off, and you may not be able to optimize properly, the machine will only optimize Y (stencil) deviation by up to 50mm. The image positioning is factored in during the calculation to decide where to load the stencil. Positioning and optimization is an effort to bring the image directly above the PCB, minimizing movements and time during production. Since I cannot witness the exact issue, I can only present what the machine can do, and what it likes to do. Anyways, all this will go away as you make the wise transition to 29x29 stencils, the sooner, the better.

Happy printing,

Mike

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jh0n!

#34041

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 3 May, 2005

I hate to start to drag this off-topic, but I just had someone here interject that perhaps going to 20x20 and using a different adaptor would be the way we should go, due to the cost difference. Can you (or anyone) quickly identify a few reasons why 29x29 is preferable?

Thx. -john.

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KEN

#34052

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 3 May, 2005

I have 5 of these machines. What software version are you running.

24 inch frames will interfere with the USC. The solvent bar will ride on the stencil frame. This will not allow for a pre-load on the foil.

1. Adaptors suck! 2. Adaptors suck! 3. Make sure your 1/4-20 adaptor bolts are not too long...crash! 4. Adaptors (if universal) will NEVER be setup the same way twice. You will be forced to optimize and calibrate every build. 5. 29 inch frames are plug-and-play. A monkey has a 1 in 4 chance of loading it right. Add tools and the monkey gets retarded and the odds jump to 200:1 that it gets in correctly. 6. You're already having trouble. Why complicate it. Simplify, simplify, simplify.

7. default program (which is embeded in the software) is alrady for a 29 inch setup.

Is this machine calibrated? There were bugs in early UP1500 software versions that had issues with stencil positioning. There were two different screens with identical (stencil) functions that positioned the stencil at different positions....

Look, your in the big leags now, get used to it. If you apply legacy methods to modern machinery you will be owned by that machine.

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MikeaJ

#34057

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 3 May, 2005

I 100% agree, KEN is absolutely right. If your machine is equipped with a stencil cleaner, and it is the original SMTech USC with the full length bar, you are in trouble already. If your software is of an earlier vintage, upgrade ASAP. Anything less than 6.32 will have issues, if your in the 7.xx, you are in better shape. Unfortunately, going from 6.xx to 7.xx is not very easy or cheap. Anyways, elimination of adaptors will greatly enhance your setup process, and it will be one less thing to screw up. KEN is stating real world experience with this issue that I have dealt with numerous times at many, many sites in the past. Your 1/4-20 screws will strip or gall up. If you have a older MPM style adaptor that is not hogged out, it will weigh a ton, and will eventually be dropped. The machine is designed for full size stencils, The original universal adaptor proves this, it was almost as if it was designed just to make you change your mind. I am quite sure you are very busy, and have enough to worry about. If cost or space is really an issue, shop around for quick change foil systems that lock into a reusable frame (29x29). Do your research with these though, some brands are pure junk, and will bring up more issues worthy of its own post. I hope this information helps you determine whats best for your application.

Mike

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jh0n!

#34061

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 4 May, 2005

I completely agree with the both of you, and mgmt. has decided to go that way. Cost, I pleaded, is negligible when compared to the addtl. work/headache of working with an additional adapter.

Let me drag this further off-topic if I might...I've read elsewhere that other people are doing it, but I don't like the idea, even though it saves some money; what are some reasons NOT to try and stick 3-4 different PCB's on a 29" stencil? The SECOND that mgmt. was convinced that we needed to go to 29", they started drooling at the prospect of jamming more artwork onto the same stencil! I don't like the fact that you're introducing more ways for an operator to screw up (ie: for X product, make sure the stencil is rotated 90degrees, tape off the other 4 PCBs, and load the right program, as opposed to just plug in stencil and go.)

Any other reasons not to go this route?

Thx again. -john.

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loz

#34065

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 4 May, 2005

I would imagine you would end up stressing the stencil, as you will be continually contacting the stencil in different places. Also damage one stencil with four images on it, and you will end up waiting for new stencil to arrive. You then have four out of action images.

Have doubled up on images in the past and it worked out for us. Needs a lot of thought though, dependant on your shop.

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MikeaJ

#34066

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 4 May, 2005

I would not recommend trying to cram or mix and match multiple images on a stencil. Especially if you are a contract house, and your clients don't understand why sending one board seperate from a panel of four is a pain in the face. However, I have had great success with smaller images of double sided products being placed on the same stencil. One image for top, one image for bottom side.If you go this route, factor in the epoxy bead, stay as clear of it as possible. As far as setup, make it easy. Program both images as front justified, then with a Sharpie, indicate on the FRAME side 1 and side 2. You simply rotate the stencil 180 for the second side, with the writing legible to the front of the machine, and instruct the operators accordingly. Granted you specify exact details to your stencil supplier. Having a knowledgable stencil manufacturer with a good product and direct feedback will make this route painless. This idea has typically struck a good balance with engineering, production, and management. Best of luck, Mike

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jh0n!

#34081

UP1500 Frame Sizes? | 4 May, 2005

Thanks to all for yr input!

-john.

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