Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


Surface mount Machines

Hello everyone, look at the forum every day, and read all yo... - Jan 15, 2005 by

Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. SMTA

Brad

#32089

Surface mount Machines | 15 January, 2005

Hello everyone, look at the forum every day, and read all your comments and questions on alot of different subjects.

My company is looking to invest in another P&P machine. We currently using Quad C series and have had some accuracy and repeatability problems. We run a low volume high mix breed of PCB's.

We are looking into some of the newer technology and have Siemens, Phillips or Assemleon, Fuji, Mydata, Quad, and Samsung in mind. I have looked at all machines in great detail many options, many differences, but all are still pick and place machines. I would like to get as many opinions from you operators as I can. I do have 2 machines in mind but want to have your comments, and suggestion to see what you all think, which machines are better, etc.

Please let me know, comments and suggestion can be as short or as long as your time permits. Think of it as a survey for all P&P machines.

Much Thanks, Brad

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

reply »

#32094

Surface mount Machines | 15 January, 2005

What kind of component mix do your products require? (0201, 0402, BGA, QFP, etc.)

This information can help everyone make suggestions.

reply »

#32096

Surface mount Machines | 16 January, 2005

I�ve worked as an SMT operator for 3 different companies. And have worked with six different types of pick and place machines. I can tell you what I know. The first place I worked at was high volume low mix and we ran Fuji�s. They are by far the best pick and place machines I�ve ever worked with. They have �floating� cams and �floating� nozzles. But they are expensive and if you can�t do PMs at least once a week, don�t invest the money. They are high maintenance. This is also when I worked with the Universals, and they are awesome for tray and vibe parts. Hands down. The vibes they have swash every other one I have ever worked with. The only line that this company ran that was �low volume high mix� (I quote that because our smallest run was 50 boards but to us that was low volume) ran Siemens. These are the machines that I have the lest amount of experience with. I can�t say a lot about them. They are a lot like the Phillips that I ran for two different companies. I loved running the Phillips. But they error out a lot. And they are less user friendly then the Samsung. By far for low volume high mix go with the Samsung. It�s what I work with now. And they are awesome. They are windows based, and while that carries some bad things (BSOD) it helps the operators out a ton. I have worked also with the Mydata pick and place machines. And they are good for high volume low mix. The set ups are killer. And the software sucks. I hope this helps. Finding new machines sucks. I�ve been through it with every company I�ve worked with and it�s not easy. Have a good engineer and some flexible operators. Megan

reply »

Brad

#32110

Surface mount Machines | 17 January, 2005

We cuurently are using parts from 1808-0603. Ic's up to QFP133. Hopes of going smaller as time goes on. Definetly would like 0201 capabilities.

Thanks, Brad

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

reply »

#32129

Surface mount Machines | 18 January, 2005

I personally use CP43 and QP341 and thats it. We are a small house so much isnt needed besides this. I have placed from 0402 and larger in the CP and basic IC and QFP in the QPs. I have been drooling over the NXT machines. http://www.fujiamerica.com/Machines/NXT.html But don't know to much about them but they seem like they would be easy to use.

reply »

HOSS

#32151

Surface mount Machines | 19 January, 2005

Brad,

I went through the arduous process of selecting new P&P equipment last year. I looked at all of the same machines you are considering in addition to Juki and Europlacer.

We are a high mix low volume shop as well and were running Quad "C" machines to that point. I had used Panasonic, Mydata, Zevatech(now Juki) and KME machines with other companies.

For your application, the Assembleon, Juki, Samsung, Europlacer and Mydata are platforms that deserve consideration. Universal is planting itself in this part of the market now with the Advantis lines.

I picked Juki as I felt that they had the right combination of capability, flexibility, service, software, and price (in that order). Having previous experience with Zevatech played a part as well. We run the piss out of these machines with minimal maintenance and all issues in the first year have been minor (only phone support needed).

Here's my advice: Figure out what is important to you and only entertain mfgr's/reps that are willing to talk to you about those items. Look at demos and run simulations of the programming software using your own data. Make them prove it to you. Talk to users of the equipment as well.

Pare your choices down to 2 or 3 quickly. You can do this on your own using budgetary quotes and specs. If you don't focus on two or three, you'll be swimming in information.

I'm very happy with our choice. Based on what you've said, Juki would be a great choice to consider.

Good Luck.

reply »

#32152

Surface mount Machines | 19 January, 2005

An excellent post Hoss. Well said and great advice.

reply »

#32165

Surface mount Machines | 20 January, 2005

What about Essemtec SMD Pick and Place FLX2010 http://www.essemtec.com/e/113.php

reply »

#32167

Surface mount Machines | 20 January, 2005

At the risk of being chastised... I must say we have very competitve solutions to the aforementioned companies. You would be doing yourself a disservice to not at least look at the C5 and C5d. We are gaining momentum on this platform as it is proving to be both reliable and easy to operate. I will say no more... www.contactsystems.com

reply »

JB

#32171

Surface mount Machines | 20 January, 2005

We are a high mix low volume company. We run Universl HSP's chipshooters and GSM's for all our oddform components.

The combination of this two platforms give us all the versatility that we need. From 0402's 0604's etc. to SMT headers, connectors, you name it. They are very user friendly, and Universal's Tech support is excellent.

Their feeders and nozzles are excellent, very low maintenance and very durable.

I would highly recommend this machines over several others that I have worked with in the past. ( no need to mention them )

Good luck.

reply »

bobpan

#32173

Surface mount Machines | 20 January, 2005

Mirae MMX machines supported by Tyco........awesome stuff......nuff said!!!!

reply »

Joel Lohr-Dataforth

#32174

Surface mount Machines | 20 January, 2005

We made huge leap from a Zevatech to a My9 three years ago and have been very happy. The MY9 beat out Siemans and Philips for the honor. I am always looking for used MY9 and would buy one without hesitation having gotten over the learning curve. We throw down all sorts of parts including uBGA and 0402 very well. My next effort will be to get the machine to place connectors, sockets and transformer and I believe it will.

Regards, Joel

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

reply »

#32181

Surface mount Machines | 20 January, 2005

I guess Greg has worn out the "do yourself a favor and look at us" approach and replaced it with "you would be doing yourself a diservice if you didn't look at us".

Very effective.

reply »


Rob

#32185

Surface mount Machines | 21 January, 2005

Find out your maximum feeder loading (number of slots taken up, not number of feeders - 8mm, 16mm, 44mm, waffle packs tubes etc), and your likely long term max feeder loading (ie what is in the pipeline, or could be).

Next find out your required run rate (and keep an eye on an estimate of your future run rate requirements).

Get a sample board and all of the associated info on the above board.

Now form a machine acceptance criteria document & let the prospective suppliers know that this will form part of the purchase order. I would suggest a 3 month trial with payment on successful completion

Include in this:

Accuracy & repeatability Minimum guaranteed run rates. Exact guarantee period and the terms - ie. no. of free call outs, telephone support, who pays for parts & when etc. Minimum uptime guarentee (this ties in with responsiveness to problems). Service schedules & costs (& training costs for this). Exact prices - as in including all feeders that you will require & prices of additional ones, machine delivery/crating/shipping/duty, commissioning, on site training, first product programmed & running, full loading of nozzles & spares, front line spares kit etc. Calibration kit & training.

Now go and see them running - if you can, ignore the manufacturers recommendations of customers to see. Be sneaky - ask on SMT net for people local to you with the appropriate machines, in general we're a friendly bunch.

By now you should have a reasonable idea.

Remember, there are a lot of machine suppliers out there, so play hard ball and make sure you get what you want.

Also take everything sales reps say with a pinch of salt - their sole job is to sell machines to you, and despite what they say there are a lot of crap machines on the market.

Good luck,

Rob.

reply »

#32225

Surface mount Machines | 24 January, 2005

I was going to leave this one alone but when Europlacer gets mentioned (1 machine sold in the US last year) and we don't I couldn't resist.

reply »

#32226

Surface mount Machines | 24 January, 2005

At the risk of siding with gregp.......

I like how this machine looks http://www.contactsystems.com/C5s.htm

Rather than read about this machine from people who have never used it I would like to have someone who has seen it run please give an honest review.

I have worked with older CSI products and thought that the 3S and 3AV were good products for what they were ment for. The 3Z had some problems, one being companies with 3S and 3AV machines previous had to get used to programming Z axis heights and speeds.

I would appreciate any "honest" feedback.

And for those that think this is a plug......I don't work for Contact Systems.

reply »

#32230

Surface mount Machines | 24 January, 2005

Just stick to the facts. People�s opinions vary. Be careful that someone may be commenting on a machine that�s three years old. A lot can change in three years. Too many people use emotion in their decision making process, which often means price. All these companies- Juki, Assembleon, Mydata, Universal and Samsung make good machines; they�re well known names and go back to the 1980s. Quality of service and support can vary from region to region and must be factored in. You mentioned 0201 capabilities. Pick and placing 0201 chip components is a challenge for any pick and place machine- to achieve same performance as say on an 0603. Pick repeatability is a big issue too. Choose three or four of these companies and hit the road with CAD data, boards and components to include 0201 chips. Let them show you their machine from soup to nuts. All high mix, frankly all pick and place users want the same thing in a machine; reliability/durability, ease-of-use, good stable software, accurate and repeatable pick and placing, low MTTR and high MTBF and good support from the manufacturer. Do your due diligence and rely on the biased �opinion� of others as a minor deciding factor. Decide what is important to you and act like you�re from Missouri- Show Me ! Go and kick the tires of the machines. Beware of spin and smoke-and-mirrors.

reply »

Andrew Smith

#32242

Surface mount Machines | 25 January, 2005

Brad,

You may want to give some of my customers a call in reference to the Assembleon machines. The newer style of P&P have windows NT which is much user friendly than the earlier generation.

You can always drop a line back if your interested in feedback.

Thanks

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

reply »

Mark

#32245

Surface mount Machines | 25 January, 2005

Could a pick and place machine from APS(out of PA) be added to the list of flexible systems for low-med volume/high mix applications?

Maybe a dumb question but in my defense, never worked/ researched PnP machines before. Read a lot about the brand names . . . Mydata, Samsung, Fuji etc. but not much on the lower priced stuff.

reply »

TM

#32247

Surface mount Machines | 25 January, 2005

We are high mix low volume company and we use a MYDATA TP9.

Very good machine that can place 0402's effectively. Issues we've had include: Maintenance - It is an older machine so, it has needed a little more than I care for. Cost of Feeders and Magazines - Although the initial price of the Machine is nice the Mags and feeders can become expensive if not correctly planned for. Fine Pitch Placement - From time to time this can not be as accurate as needed, although we don't have the newer vision system that would certainly fix this problem.

On the good side... Very easy to program especially with the MYCAM software. Very quick and easy to setup.

Actually, looking to invest in a new MY Series come year end.

Good Luck

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

reply »


RDR

#32248

Surface mount Machines | 25 January, 2005

Mark, most likely not, These "low buck tabletopper" units are for extremely low volume and accuracy requirements. Great for a labratory enviroment.

Russ

reply »

Grant

#32250

Surface mount Machines | 25 January, 2005

Hi,

I had one of those machines older MYDATA TP9 machines once, and it should work as well for very low volume applications, although the points you raise are correct. However you should get good accuracy on fine pitch, and we noticed you need to put a board support under each large fine pitch component on these machines.

We are getting rid of our MY12 now, as it's the little things with MYDATA that make larger volumes difficult, and I am very unhappy with the new 12 and 16 mm Agillis feeders which jam and miss-feed a lot.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

Base

#32256

Surface mount Machines | 26 January, 2005

Hi Grant,

What PPM's are you running on those wider Agilisses (is that the correct spelling??). We're trying to get a good figure to aim for (or to stay away from...).

Greets Base

reply »


ET

#32456

Surface mount Machines | 5 February, 2005

Hi Brad,

I suggest you get in contact with Sony. http://www.sonyfa.com/si_e1000/sie1000_producthome.cfm They got the SI E-1100, capable of placing QFPs64/0.5mm simultaenously with all other heads full of components, not like many other machines. Seeing is believing!! I suggest you one thing....ask for the component placement rate according to your product because you will end up, instead of buying a 33K line theoretical, you buy a 14K line with the mixture of components and nozzle changes. Surely it is not the fact with this Sony.

reply »

Grant

#32463

Surface mount Machines | 6 February, 2005

Hi,

I think we would get a jam up every hundred parts or so, and it's worse in cover tape that's glued down. The problem is the Agillis feeders push the cover tape to the side, which works ok on 8mm tapes, but on wider 12 and 16 mm tapes it's a nightmare. We need to put a bottle of oil on the machine and lubricate the feeder all the time to keep the tape slipping over the fork.

It's so bad, and MYDATA have done such a bad job at covering things like this up, that we have lost confidence in them for making a stable machine for higher volume production, and we have gone with Fuji's.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

#32464

Surface mount Machines | 6 February, 2005

Hi Brad - You have just opened Pandoras box. EVERYONE seems to have their own favorite machine for their own reason, and I imagine you will get an opinon from just about everyone. I have represented several lines of equipment new, and now am in the used equipment business, so I can offer whatever the customer decides he likes. I also have my personal favorites and dislikes along these same lines, but mine have to do with: 1. what I know about the manufacturers of this equipment, and about how they support their customers; and 2. dealing with the used piece of equipment, after it has been on the production floor for a while. My suggestion is that you (as other forum readers have suggested) narrow the field first with your particular requirement. After you have that list down to a few you are considering, you might throw it back out for comments. Whatever you do, make your own decision for your own reasons - you will have to live with this equipment for a long time, and there are many sales motivated types that will tell you whatever you want to hear. Do your homework, go check out the machine at the sellers facility, get some hands on time with it - get them to show you how to program and run it. Look at the machine construction and enginnering - and don't be fooled by simple programming - this does not get the components placed accurately on the board! LASTLY - forget about price until you have the field narrowed - this is truly the least important issue as all of these guys will jump to make a deal with you that you can live with. Sorry about this giant run on sentance. I have been in this business too long and I see too many people make the same mistakes over and over. If I can help, my number is 310-713-2575, email: scott.fa@cox.net - Good Luck! Scott

reply »

Valerie

#32528

Surface mount Machines | 9 February, 2005

I've worked with Siemens, Philips, and Fuji and my vote is for Siemens. The machines are flexible, easy & quick to change over and their support is great.

reply »

jim

#32562

Surface mount Machines | 10 February, 2005

I have also have reviewed the machines listed and decided that the Mydata for low volume high mix, it was the best. It is very flexible when dealing with imperfect material supplied. The other machines are better in the high volume arena

reply »

Grant

#32597

Surface mount Machines | 11 February, 2005

Hi,

Your right, and that's the thing I liked about MYDATA, even though we are selling ours now, and putting in Fuji'. I would still by a MYDATA if I was starting again, and doing low volume.

When we started we kept our first product as simple as possible, and so we could (just) get away with 1 x 8 mm Agillis feeder bin, that held 16 tapes, and 1 vibration feeder and that was it. The panel of 4 of our product just fit on the Y wagon with 3 trays of components behind it, and a strip of 12 mm tape on the right side of it.

Only MTDATA could have done that, and it picked from the trays and the 12 strip of components no problem, and we did hundreds of boards that way. Once we did enough product, we ended upgrading to more feeders, and a tray wagon for those trays. It was just about time because our product became slightly larger, and we could not fit 3 trays on the Y wagon any longer.

But as our volume increased we found we were not using these features any longer, and various things on the MYDATA started causing us a lot of problems. They are not stable, and we constantly need to have someone attending to them with knowledge of little tricks to keep them working. The 12 and 16 mm Agillis feeders are a case in point, and it's a poor design that barely works.

So we ended up spending a lot more than it could have cost getting Fuji's or something higher end just trying to make the MYDATA keep up. We added everything, but the optimization software barely works, and there is constant issues. We need to visually inspect every board, because we cannot trust it to go direct into the oven. The machine just won't pick components reliably enough, and again it's mostly the 12 and 16 mm Agillis feeders that cause the problem, but we also have the tray wagon vibrating that much when the HYDRA is running, that we get components jumping out of the trays.

I think the only thing to ask yourself, is the MYDATA might be a great machine or low volume, but if you find your getting busy, it might be better to save money on upgrades and more feeders, and get a separate chip shooter or something from another manufacturer. Otherwise you might get into a trap where the more you spend on upgrades to the MYDATA vs the benefit you get might be better spent on another brand machine that will perform better in higher volume production.

Otherwise you are making a good choice with MYDATA for low volume, because your right, they are the most flexible when your budget is tight, and you cannot get feeders for all the components you need to place.

I hope this helps, and good luck with your purchase!

Regards,

Grant

reply »

JBurgans

#32743

Surface mount Machines | 18 February, 2005

Whatever you do, stay far, far away from the Manncorp machines. I happened to tour a facilty that used those, and I sincerely felt for those poor souls who were suck operating those machines.

reply »

Mark

#32755

Surface mount Machines | 20 February, 2005

As far as I know, the only thing Manncorp does is put "Manncorp" stickers on the equipment and re-sells it. They are a re-seller/distributor of equipment.

reply »


DL

#32756

Surface mount Machines | 20 February, 2005

HI Brad,

I'd stick with QUAD, I believe they are no longer known as quad. It's what you know, a different brand would mean learning it and the time to do so. I've never seen any problem with QUAD, that could not be resolved. The C series is kinda old, but I've seen them place small small parts, smaller than 0603 anyhow. These QUADS are ideal for LOW VOLUME HIGH MIX. I've had at times 3 diffent jobs running on two sepparate machines. Change outs are a snap with all your options available, extra feeders, docking carts...etc. Of course I've seen where mamgt. didn't want to spend the $$$, it then comes down to Operator Skills.

2cents Dave

reply »

Grant

#32769

Surface mount Machines | 21 February, 2005

Hi,

Who are Manncorp. Sounds like a bunch of male strippers!

Grant

reply »


Rob

#32770

Surface mount Machines | 21 February, 2005

http://www.manncorp.com/

Sorry to dissapoint mate, but there's always rugby!

reply »

TDS

#32961

Surface mount Machines | 1 March, 2005

So much for good advice.

reply »

#32970

Surface mount Machines | 1 March, 2005

Quad no longer exists. They were bought by Tyco (for what reason I cannot say). Tyco promotes only the APS platform from Quad for special applications. They claim they will build "Q" series machines to order if you like, and they probably have a refurb program. If you were buying a new machine, a Quad from Tyco would be like buying a new Yugo car. If they exist, it doesn't mean it is a good idea.

reply »

#32977

Surface mount Machines | 1 March, 2005

Brad, If I were you I would not take advice from anyone on any forum. What you need to do is have all your requirements on a spreadsheet (i.e. part sizes, # of feeders, etc) and then call 2 to 3 minor players in the Pick and place arena and then call 2-3 major players. Get some idea from these players and then make a choice on who is going to demo your needs. If a company wants your business they will offer you a demo at there facility using you pattern programs and dummy parts. Make sure this company can convert your existing programs and create new programs with the tools you have now. Ask about service are there any service tech�s in your area? Ask about phone support? Then when you think you found the machine you want get the names of customers running this machine type and call them and arrange a visit if this is possible. Talked to the employees on the floor operator \ tech�s \ programmers get the picture. Do your own research and make the decision and don�t look back it will be the right one.

reply »


Mo

#33008

Surface mount Machines Financing | 2 March, 2005

Good Afternoon All,

Brad I would not be able to help you out on the technical side of your purchase, but If your company is looking for Financing Options I may be of service. My name is Mo Tavackoli and I am with PlainsCapital Leasing. We are a bank owned direct funding source and I would love the opportunity to work with you. Thank you and good luck.

Mo Tavackoli Business Development Manager Ph: 214-775-4618 mtavackoli@plainscapital.com www.plainscapital.com

reply »


Rob

#33010

Surface mount Machines | 3 March, 2005

Hi Greg,

That's no real reflection though is it, in Europe you can't move for Europlacers these days. Just down the road from us a company has a couple of 928's that have been running since the dawn of time with no problems, & I can think of a huge number of customers that run with vitesse's, Progress' & Access' & swear by them. Obviously if they are new to the US market then they need to cover the support issue.

Come to think of it we're not exactly tripping over your machines this side of the pond....

;-)

reply »

Used PCB Equipment - AdoptSMT

SMT Machines