Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk

Hi, I think I am having a bad MYDATA day. I have tried... - Jan 10, 2005 by

Grant

#31965

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 10 January, 2005

Hi,

I think I am having a bad MYDATA day.

I have tried optimizing our MYDATA for the last time with this crap Myspeed software. It does not give any kind of solution unless it's perfectly happy, and so we have to run the machine again slower than it should run.

Today it won't allow us to get a solution because it's complaining of an incompatible feeder type in the FLEX mag, but its ok, and the mag is configured correctly in the software. The annoying thing is we have locked those parts anyway, so we don't care about optimisation on this feeder.

So again we don't have any indication on how to optimize the product for today�s run, and it's going to cost us time. With the HYDRA you really need to optimize to get faster pick times, as multiple picks are very slow on MYDATA's.

I am totally sick of this crap Myspeed software, and is anyone else also pissed off with it?

I want to get some names together and try and get an answer out of MYDATA. That will let me prove it�s not us, but other people are having problems also. Without good optimisation software MYDATA's are little more than a toy. It would gladly pay for software if it worked and saved us time.

I have been complaining about this to MYDATA for almost a year, but get the usual happy sales �I will check into it for you� crap, so whenever they visit it does not turn into a complete blood bath of killing etc.... Lucky we don't manufacture electronics for chain saws.

So I am really interested in hearing other peoples impressions of this software, and if anyone has any ideas on how to make MYDATA listen, and put an engineer on the product who actually knows how to program computers.

Ok, I feel a lot better now.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

KEN

#31967

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 10 January, 2005

Grant, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

Sounds really bad. Can you send your program to Mydata and have them use their own software to solve your problem?

Any company worth its salt will offer to optimize your program to assist you in your time of difficulty. Period. No exceptions. (of course I am asuming you are a "member" or have your machine/software registered or whatever is required these days...) If its used and your not registered...your on your own.

reply »

#31969

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 11 January, 2005

We have had similar problems and have abandoned use of MySpeed.

I don't know what version of Mydata software you are running but have started to use the 'Hydra Preparation' function within TpSys 2.3 to arrive at optimised set-ups. Mydata advise that the algorithm used in TpSys is the same as that used in MySpeed but seems to be much more stable.

reply »

Grant

#31970

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 11 January, 2005

Hi,

Yes, what a nightmare! We have sent our designs to MYDATA often, but don't get much result as they are also using myspeed.

However Scott B's post is really interesting. Can you let me know how you do that? If there is an easer way to optimize the feeder positions and number of duplicate feeders you need to increase speed, then it would be interesting to try. I did not know you could do something on the machine itself, and no one has ever suggested that to us previously.

Can you let us know how to do that, and we can give it a try?

Regards,

Grant

reply »

#31979

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 11 January, 2005

Just try to do family set up with it. It will move almost every part to a diffrent place. My old programer had to do it all by hand if it was to be done at all. Normaly we just left the old parts in there and added the new ones. Talk about slow. But it sill beats a 30min. change out to do 100 of board A and 100 of board B. Megan

reply »

Grant

#31986

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 11 January, 2005

Hi,

That's the problem, and in one case it wanted to put 6 reels of 10K resistor, when we only had 10 on the PCB. It really only needed 1 extra feeder, but decided to fill all extra 15 feeders in the bin, so setup is hell. It might think that's a good idea, but adding all those reels for a single pick of the HYDRA head is really bad.

Someone really needs to do something about this software. For my part, the next machine will be a Fuji CP or something like that.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

Simon - VEMA

#31992

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 11 January, 2005

Hi Grant - really sorry to see the pain you are going through, should not be that hard to do the basic tasks with any software, perhaps there is another solution..

reply »

KEN

#31994

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 11 January, 2005

cp? yuck.

You could do better than that.

reply »

Grant

#31996

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 12 January, 2005

Hi,

Actually I meant XP! We have been looking at the XP chip shooter, as it looks fast and reliable.

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

reply »

#32006

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 12 January, 2005

If you go into 'Magazine' menu and select 'Hydra preparation' then select the layout you wish to optimise (thats the stinger, you can only optimise for a single layout).

You will then be presented with optimisation options which can be adjusted ('saved picks' adjusts level of optimisation) or fix reel quantities. It will also give you a summary of the optimisation. Once happy you can commit the optimisation using 'Create magazine kit'.

This method does not give you a predicted build time.

reply »

#32007

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 12 January, 2005

Grant,

I just have one question. Why would you go from a Mydata machine to a Fuji XP? You seem to be sacrificing component range for raw chip output. Wouldn't one of the multi-function machines (0201 - 45mm with similar speed) on the marketplace be a more approprate 'next step' in the evolution of your production? I work for one of the Pick and Place companies, and I am trying to get a better feel for why people make some decisions, and why Mydata has such a following.

reply »

Grant

#32011

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 12 January, 2005

Hi,

The MYDATA is a very flexible machine, however it's slow as a chip shooter, and really needs Myspeed to work to get as much speed as possible. It's also wasteful to get chip placement speed because you need to repeat feeders of the same component type.

So the MYDATA is a good flexible machine that's ideal when your building up production for the first time. However when things get busy, it shows it's slowness. Myspeed is supposed to help, and that's why I am angry that it's not working. We really need it.

So adding a fast chip shooter in front, means we would only use it for placement of fine pitch parts, and would be a better option now than getting a second MYDATA, because of the problems with optimizing.

But we really should be getting more speed than we are now.

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

reply »

Grant

#32012

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 12 January, 2005

Hi,

Yes, we were promised more, but I am now looking for other options. As you know, we just need more space!

Regards,

Grant

reply »

#32017

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 12 January, 2005

This will always be the case with in-line spindle machines that rate their cph based on unreal conditions. Flexible placement machines with different head designs will perform better (closer to advertised) and are truley more flexible because you don't require 8 lanes of the same part number to maximize throughput. A chipshooter with a MyData in line is awkward to say the least. The typical layout would have feeders rear (chipshooter) and front (MyData) and occupy at least four times the space of a comparable two flex machine line (not to mention the two different feeder sets required). I would recommend starting all over with one or two flex machines (with higher throughput) from the same manufacturer. If you go with two machines you should have equal capability on each machine so you can run them separately if needed.

reply »

Grant

#32025

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Hi,

What do you mean by flex machines? You've hit the nail on the head with the cause of the problem, but I am interested in what you mean about flex machines. Are you talking about a machine that can change the placement head entirely?

Our problem is increasingly our designs are using lots of passive components, so we need to add faster chip placement. I considered changing the MYDATA, but it's going to be costly to do that, so I might do each step at a time. We write our own software for transferring designs into the placers, so we could handle different models easily from a file point of view. Feeders is a problem though.

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

reply »

Base

#32026

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Hi Grant,

You say your design are increasingly using more passives. Do you mean you're using more and more components per board or is it only the ratio passives/IC's that is shifting? And are you also increasing volume or is it just the component-count per board that is increasing? And do you expect this trend to go on in the future? (because if it is you'll be facing the same output- and investment problems when your 2 brandnew flex-placers hit their ceilings).

In other words: is MYDATA not capable of growing with you both in volume- and technology?

Greetz Base

reply »


Rob

#32027

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Also depends on how often you will be running the machine, at what speeds and how long you want it to last. If you're going to thrash it 24/7 and want it to last 10-20 years then a turret chipshooter will have less maintenace downtime, and be a lot less costly on parts, and you can somewhat mitigate the feeder location issues Greg quite rightly pointed out by running on changeover (only if the volumes allow).

reply »

Grant

#32028

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Hi,

It's both really, and we are doing higher volume of current products, but new products are increasing in component count, mostly passives. We have analog on our products, and this uses a lot of passives, plus each semiconductor needs decoupling etc. So we are finding that some of our new products are using over 1000 parts per board, and about 50 of these are semiconductors, and the rest are passives.

So I thought a better chip shooter in the front of the line should really speed things up. Working with the MYDATA is not cutting it because I feel the MYDTA is not an efficient way to pick parts, and the my-speed software is useless.

So a machine that's designed for fast passive parts placement should really help the line. I don't think adding an extra MYDATA will help, as they are not fast for chip shooting, and they cost about the same as an XP when you load up a MYDATA with the correct cameras, HYDRA, and Agillis feeders.

I don't think MYDATA is cheap, when you need to add all the options, although it's very flexible when your just starting out. It's nice that at least 1 machine can load everything, even if it seems to be a compromise between being a fine pitch placer, and a chip shooter.

Regards,

Grant

reply »


Rob

#32029

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Hi Grant,

I'm sure the XP is a good machine, but don't expect CP performance or longevity from it, it's just not engineered the same way (i.e. it's not the size of an ocean liner).

Rob.

reply »

#32030

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Grant,

Again, just my .02 worth. I would have to agree with Greg as well. Two Flex machines from the same vendor will give you much better line balancing, and I think better overall capability than adding a different type of 'animal' chip shooter to a Mydata that will be hard to program.

What I mean by a flex machine, is a machine that can shoot chips at a good rate (12 - 15k real output) but still has the ability to do QFP's, uBGA, Flip chips and such also at a good speed (2-4k.) The company I work for sells a Flex machine that can do everything from 0201's to 45mm QFP's down to 15mil pitch. The machine is rated around 20k, but will typically run around 10-14k depending on mix. It is true that you get a much greater de-rate on these type of machines, but it is due to the great component range you can put to a single machine.

The ideal line would depend on your mix and components, and cycle rates that you need. We have machines in our portfolio that can go from real outputs of 10k - 25k with a component range greater than your Mydata and in less floorspace. The other nice thing is that they will consistently hit the cycle rate numbers because the setup is optimized and verified before running. It doesn't take any longer for an operator to plug a feeder in the right position as the wrong position.

One last thing is that the reliability factor cannot be underestimated. I have an existing customer that I offered a three year warranty to, and they weren't that interested. They then showed me that they had spent $3k in parts in the last year across 8 machines and had had about 1 hour of unscheduled downtime. The point of this is that Fuji is not the only one out there that builds robust machines that will last 20 years.

reply »


Rob

#32031

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Good point, but there are not many companies that actually have built machines that have worked robustly & reliably for 20 years. That is a little unfair to newer entrants to the market, but then again reputations are earnt.

Regarding flexible machines I have seen and heard a lot of good things about Samsung machines in the last few years - from people who really do work their machines very hard.

reply »


RDR

#32034

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

We use Samsung here and we have beat the $#^ out of them for 5 years straight with no machine failures to date. Granted it's not twenty years but we will see. What are the majority of these passives you are placing in relation to size?

Not a Samsung Sales Rep by the way.

reply »

#32036

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Rob,

I actually work for Philips / Assembleon. We have had machines out in the field for 18+ years that are still in production. The customer I mentioned has had the gear for 4 years. They also do multiple changeovers every day, and each one takes 10-15 minutes (across 4 machines w/ 1 operator.)

We also have machines in all of the (former) Big 3 automotive guys running 24 / 7 / 365 that are the same class of machine that you can get from us in the Opal for a very reasonable price. We also have machines in customers that are literally working out of their basement, and according to them we have the best customer support in the Pick and Place industry (only 3 of 4 years admittedly.)

For what it is worth, Samsung has a nice machine with it's pros and cons, but then again so does Mydata and Fuji in their specific arena's. I think, of course, that I have some nice machines that can span several needs.

With features like making vision files at your desk vs. on the machine, optimizing and seting up programs offline (including bitmap teaching) vs. on the machine and common vision and program databases that can be shared globaly, I think that we have many features that can make engineers and technitians lives easier. Our goal is that you can spend time doing things that matter instead of 'babysitting a machine.'

I guess the moral of the story is to not categorize all of the pick and place vendors on old notions. I think you do yourself and your company a diservice. All vendors have their strengths and weaknesses and as engineers you have to make sure that their strengths line up with your weaknesses and vice versa.

I will now get off my soapbox.... I apologise for the advertisement....

reply »


Rob

#32037

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Hi Fasst1,

Have Assemblion/Philips actually building machines for 20 years, or were they badged machines? (I'm not asking to be funny, I'm asking as I don't know)

I've build product on Topaz's, Emeralds & Comets, and they have been good machines, but they have not been great machines. They were neither as accurate or repeatable as the Universal GSM platform (our choice of fine pitch placer at the time) or as stable or reliable as a CP6 (Base 1 FCM) However the support & training from Philips (and I assume Assemblion has carried on that tradition)has always been superb.

Regarding doing my company a disservice with outdated notions of machine classifications, I can only go on what I see and on the opinion of those I trust, and when my machines finally need replacing, (which is many years off)I will go and check the market out. At that point I will be happy to talk to you guys.

Thanks for the banter!

Rob.

reply »

#32039

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Rob,

I also appreciate the banter. It is good to have these discussions with end users in a (hopefully) non sales environment.

Philips actually started building Pick and Place machines in 1980 for high volume accounts. They started out because they had the components designed, but needed a way to sell higher volumes of them.

The products that you are refering to are the GEM machines that are a co-developemnt between Assembleon/Philips and Yamaha. Yamaha started building pick and place robots in the early 80's as well, so around 22+ years. Yamaha and Philips have had a relationship since 1988.

As for your past experiences, the machines you are touting are 4+ generations old. The other part of the equation was that an Emerald vs a GSM or the FCM Base 1 vs a CP6 is like comparing a 2005 Corvette to the 2004 Corvette. Yes, the new vette is better because of technology improvements, but also because the 2004 has some miles on it.

I would wager that if you put a Topaz XII machine next to your current Universal equipment, you would see a similar gap between the machines performances due to how much improvement we have done over the generations. I would also guess that we would stack up favorabily against their new offerings at a fraction of the price.

My legs are getting tired from getting on and off the soap box so many times in one day...

One last thing I want to say; my part about the disservice to the company is not a remark to you or anyone, it is just pointing out that human nature is to resist change. Yet, sometimes change can be good.

Greg

reply »


Rob

#32040

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

True Greg, thanks for the discussion.

reply »

mgc

#32055

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Fasst1, Not only are you abusing this forum with completely unveiled sales pitches (your so called soap box), you also have proven that you can't count. You jumped in on this thread yesterday. Your legs are "tired" from two days "getting on and off the soap box" Yes, give it a rest.

reply »

Grant

#32059

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Hi,

It is a bit hard when you want to get clear answers from people on their experience when a manufacturer jumps in, because it skews the thread.

Is there anyone using an XP chip shooter? What do they think? I really like the design of it, and they look really well designed. I do like the MYDATA from a flexibility point of view, but I think we have outgrown them.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

KEN

#32064

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 January, 2005

Many of the Engineers from Dynapert / Precima went to Philips EMT. You can see many simlarities in feeder and nozzle designs. They (Philips) have a signifficant history in the P&P arena. I have 3 GEM emeralds from 1998 that continue to calibrate at 1/2 the published spec of not to exceed 0.02mm. My 1999 Emerald-X machines routinely calibrate at no greater than 0.007mm!!! These machines should not be disqualifed as Flexible AND accurate machines.

As far as 20 year old machines...gimme a break. Your gonna be replacing some parts regardless if turret or gantry style...just not frames and skins. I Have several 1991 CP4.3's. They still run great, but parts do wear out. They don't keep running great on their own.

reply »

#32065

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 14 January, 2005

Grant-

Ask yourself this question: Can your company afford to spend $350K on the best line possible? Because that is what it will cost you to get in to a used CP-643 and GSM-2 line. Bite off on that and your world will become rosy again. Buy those two machines and you will never have to worry about equipment issues like what you are going through now... ever again. It's just that simple. Sell the Mydata to offset the cost and you'll look like a hero.

reply »

Grant

#32067

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 14 January, 2005

Hi,

We don't have that to spare right now, but I was thinking about XP 142 and adding that to the current like, and then selling the MYDATA and getting an XP 242. Not sure about getting the CP model, as it's a serious bit of equpment, but would speed things up.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

#32084

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 14 January, 2005

Grant, By flex machine I simply mean a machine that can place the entire range of SMT components. I don't consider the majority of Japanese machines to be truly flex machines because they are always presented as two machine solutions. The first machine is tooled for faster chip placement and the second machine is tooled for fine pitch and other larger devices. The first machine cannot do the entire component range. The second machine is too slow for chip placement. Neither machine alone has enough feeder capacity especially when considering tray options.

As for the Fuji NXT, I beleive this machine has limitations from the perspective of a low or medium volume high mix assembly house. There was a post a few weeks ago where these shortcomings were revealed. As I recall there were some issues with board size limitations among other things.

What are your basic requirements (for throughput, feeder capacity and board size)?

reply »

Alan

#39644

MYDATA Myspeed software is total junk | 13 February, 2006

Hi Grant,

Does the Flex mag have the corect pal chip in it? Some of the early Flex mags had tm8 pal chips in them. On the machine this did not have much of an effect (it did at one time allow you to have the hydra pick from the flex because the machine thought it was a tm8) but myspeed knows that what type of magazine you have and will not allow you to put a 12mm tape in a 8mm location without forcing it.

reply »

reflow oven profiler

Manufacturing Software