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Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ?

What do you think about RoHS (lead free) and WEEE ? ... and... - Dec 15, 2004 by Patrick Tavernier  

Yeah Ken!!! ... - Dec 21, 2004 by RDR  

#31730

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 15 December, 2004

What do you think about RoHS (lead free) and WEEE ? ... and whiskers ????

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DasonC

#31739

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 15 December, 2004

Recommend to check http://leadfree.ipc.org

I agreed the lead free is a must for environmental and human health. Not sure how soon they can found out another harmful material

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#31741

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 15 December, 2004

Its all just a fad...

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RDR

#31742

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 15 December, 2004

I think they need to go after the real lead contaminants. PCB/electronic waste accounts for .01% of lead waste based upon my last info I rec'd. So this lead free agenda is really going to help alot isn't it. I believe that most of the lead contamination in europe would be from bombs, bullets and batteries wouldn't it?

I beleive this to be a big scam with some type of political and monetary gains behind it somewhere! (somebody is getting $RICH$ from this!)

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#31745

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 15 December, 2004

Here's my 10 cents

Studies done in the 1980's concluded that pure tin was prone to whisker generation. A tin content lower then 70% became exempt from this phenomenon. I have never seen or done any studies on the impact lead had in reducing the potential for whisker growth. Tin levels above 70% are crossing the danger zone. I have not seen any concern in the lead-free debates about tin pest. Tin pest is the disintegration of tin into a grey powder and has the potential to occur after long incubation at low temperatures, never seen tin pest with leaded, antimony and bismuth alloys.

The reason more studies were done in the 70's and the 80's is that more resources were available because those were the golden years for the electronics industry. Another important factor in those years was that electronics were serviced and repaired, field failures were better documented and analyzed (a wealth of reliability and defect data).

Today electronics are not repaired, we just throw them away and buy a new one because it's cheaper then repair. If the malfunction of the device was caused by whiskers or another solder defect (related or not too lead-free) we will never know.

The plastic mountain we are building will eventually become a bigger concern then the lead, because almost all electronics have plastic housing. We are unlimited in how much plastic we can make, and the plastic will be around forever (man made like the CFC's remember). The lead on the other hand is limited to how much nature produces, and in my opinion it's ok to give it back to nature if we don�t need it anymore (just don't dump it close to a water well).

I am an opponent of the very quick political (not at all technical) driven transition to relatively unknown alloys and high mix of different alloys. And being in this field for a living I'm very concerned hearing on a daily bases we don't want to go lead-free "we just have to"

For a long time I thought I was the only opponent to the lead-free transition, but one day I saw a powerful statement from "the well known" davef which was very encouraging to me. Thanks Dave

Patrick

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blnorman

#31762

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 16 December, 2004

It's driven by those highly technically astute politicians in Europe. IPC has a lead-free forum you can subscribe to and almost to a person in the forum agrees that elimination of lead in solder is assinine.

From the automotive end of electronics, the testing we've done with lead-free alternatives shows much lower reliability due to the higher temps and residence times involved underhood. So if you don't mind your engine stopping for no reason or your ABS system failing, we can easily convert to lead free. Fortunately for us, we're not governed by RoHS and WEEE but EoLV (end of life vehicle) which gives lead in solder an exemption.

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Rob

#31771

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 17 December, 2004

Kyoto anyone?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

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#31775

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 17 December, 2004

No thanks Rob I don't want these jokers to come to the conclusion that humans are the biggest producers of CO2 simply by breathing. The good part is plants convert it back to O2. So I suggest y'all keep some plants in the greenhouse and we be fine.

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#31783

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 17 December, 2004

CO2 is not the problem, CO (carbon monoxide) produced by combustion (engines,fires, etc) is. Trees and vegetation can process CO2, but not CO.

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KEN

#31807

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 21 December, 2004

1. Its market protectionism for the Europeans. 2. Silver is less toxic than Lead? Wrong! 3. Don't expect your local alloys exchange market to take a position (London Metals Exchange). No other alloy is cheaper than lead. The cost of silver and Tin will rise. 4. Why not start with a take-back and recycle program trial rather than a total industry shift? Talk about jumpin in with both feet. 5. Car batteries consume over 97% of the worlds lead. They have a near 100% recycle exchange. I doubt it was always like that. So why is Electronics any different? 6. Land fill leachant is of great concern. Lead efflent will now be exchanged for silver effluent. Silver toxicity anyone? 7. How about legislating better landfill methods or industrial waste disposal techniques?

...Oh I gotta run. Wal-Mart has cheap (pronounced "Chinese made" ) disposable goods on sale and I'm a fad conscious, un-educated consumer with a short attention span and an average household credit card debt of 7,000 dollars.

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#31809

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 21 December, 2004


RDR

#31810

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 21 December, 2004

Yeah Ken!!!

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#31839

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 24 December, 2004

Hi ! Thank's for your replies. I'm seeing you're very concerned about this subject. I think RoHS and WEEE arrive too soon. Not technological solution about whiskers and tin pest. RoHS implicates a lot of money for to implemente news process. We must qualidied all our producs with free lead components. The temperature elevation will damage this news components. WEEE will oblige producers to collect old producs and money again ... But we have choice !! About alloy, we think SAC 305 and traditionnal flow. Not aqueous flow because our ERSA EWS 330 is to little. We think to implemente really RoHS about april 2005. We stay in France and Tunisia. And You ?

I Wish you a Merry Christmas !

Pat

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#31867

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 31 December, 2004

I agree that something has to be done with the lead waste but I believe that a recycling program is a better alternative to lead-free. Isn't silver more toxic? How about the venting of alternate alloy fumes, let alone the effects on operators. I say in North America that we really need to get the technical experts involved in decision making for our industry or we maybe "pushed in a black hole" where we can't get out of.

RECYCLE PROGRAM!!!!

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Bob R.

#31947

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 9 January, 2005

You're right that us in the automotive market are exempt, but that just delays the inevitable by two or three years. Our customers, especially Japanese, are pushing us to provide Pb free products in the '08/'09 timeframe so that the end customers get the impression they are green. "Impression" being the operative word since this is a case where the cure may be worse than the disease.

It doesn't bother me, though. I do process/materials development for a living. Legislation like this, whether it's for Pb free or emissions, means job security.

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ricardof

#31966

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 10 January, 2005

Greetings from Mexico I can see several good opinions about the "real" need to chnage to Lead-Free processes, but at the end and trying to be real, is there any good path we could follow to stop this process? I can see a lot of work, investment in equipment and material and non-answered questions coming, but for sure, in 2 more years, if Lead-Free is already a STANDARD, tons of SMT Process issues will appear and those Councils pushing to make this happen will do nothing.

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Mike

#31978

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 11 January, 2005

Regarding Ken's statement that "Its market protectionism for the Europeans" - this is nonsense. European producers have to meet the requirements too, and they're no better at it than anyone else.

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

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RDR

#31983

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 11 January, 2005

It is interesting that I have heard the market protectionaism statement from numerous people (CEOs and the like)

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#31988

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 11 January, 2005

I'm not a politician but it sure looks like protectionism and a short-term economy boost for Europe. Don't forget that lead-free for the electronics is a European directive, USA and other countries (exept for japan) have non of this on there agenda (it's all a question of priorities) But we can be confident that the lead-free will be short lived, because it's driven by politicians and sales people, they all of the sudden have to sell new equipment and alloys 1.5 to 2 times more expensive (looks pretty good on there commission check). And it will last until (beep) hits the fan.

Anyone out there serious about quality and reliability has to stay away from lead-free, because quality is a measurement towards established standards and in lead-free there are no standards. I rest my case

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Rob

#31997

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 12 January, 2005

Hi Patrick,

I see what you're all are saying, and can understand how you come to that conclusion, however I would disagree with the protectionism arguement.

Most of the electronics assemblies in Europe come in from China, Taiwan, Malaysia etc, (TV's from Turkey) the main exceptions being Military, Medical & Automotive - which I think are exempt.

I think it is a real attempt to do something (however misguided or not) about the huge landfill problems we face - especially in the UK, and the effects. Remember our population density is far higher in Europe (Holland is 466 people per square kilometre, UK 244, whereas the US is 29 people per square kilometre).

You have a lot more space in the US to get rid of your junk than we do, and don't have to build houses on top of it, or drink water from resoviors near by (not that i'm confident that decent studies have been carried out in this area!).

One other thing to consider is that due to the Asian shift in high volume manufacturing most of the European manufacturing is small scale now, with often one line only, and the cost of changing to Lead free (equipment, expertise, time, stock write off's, attrition, downtime etc)is really going to hurt the average operation - not help it in anyway.

I don't think (well hope anyway) that our politicians see the US as a threat to our electronics industry, as (especially in the UK) we've worked very well with the US in the past.

Besides which with all the effort our own policians have expended in the past wrecking our industrial base, I'd be surprised if they could find the time (between lunches, running up expenses & arguing) to even think of any one elses.

Rob.

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CL

#31998

Your opinion about RoHS and WEEE ? | 12 January, 2005

Good Morning Everyone,

This whole lead free thing has really stirred up the hornets nest! I agree that it doesnt make any technical sense to replace a cheap toxic material for an expensive toxic material that costs more, is more expensive to process, and will create more pollution to process. For those who believe that it is just a fad, look at the emerging directives from California, Maine, Washington, etc.... they are all adopting WEEE direcives and some are adopting RoHS. RoHS is coming to the US. It doesnt make sense as there are quite a few unanswered questions but this is not the first time we have been presented with a problem that has loose ends. This reminds me of when flourocarbons were banned due to ozone problems. There was a panic regarding how asemblies would be cleaned. The result was the realization of OA fluxes that could be cleaned with water.

Perhaps we will come away from this with a better process........ Hopefully we will not see catastophic failures first!

Good Luck to All

Chris

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