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New Pick and Place Operation

I have been reading the forum to try and figure out what bra... - Jun 02, 2004 by Dr.Lou  

... - Jan 16, 2006 by PeteC  

... - Jan 17, 2006 by PeteC  

... - Jan 17, 2006 by PeteC  

#28896

New Pick and Place Operation | 2 June, 2004

I have been reading the forum to try and figure out what brands to look at for Pick and Place machines. We need around 3,600 cph, and would like to be able to handle 0402, soic, tssop, and perhaps as little as 0.020" pitch. Max pcb is 9 x 13". Looks like a single gantry design would be enough. Have looked at Quad and Manncorp, but only the Quad (Tyco) seems to have a good rep. Everyone talks about the Fuji as being the good stuff, but do they make lower speed stuff like this? Please don't recommend stuff that is not applicable. Also, Tyco is selling refurbished Quad IVc's, is this a good way to go?

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#28897

New Pick and Place Operation | 2 June, 2004

Fuji is the best, but there are other alternatives besides Quad. If you really want to look at Fuji, take a peek at their XP142E series. With "Vision processing on the fly" and a "Mini Turret Head" with 12 placement nozzles it should fit your needs nicely. Not cheap though as no Fuji's are.

You may also want to look at the Universal GSM. We have 4 here and there a very flexible machine. We place everything from 0402's up to QFP 208's (and beyond) and down to 12mil pitch all day every day. A GSM is a very capable platform. When configured with the "Flexjet" 7 spindle head, you also get the "Vision processing on the fly". Add a 2.6mil upward looking camera (other resolutions available down to .5mil) for your larger packages and you're set to place pretty much everything you need to (0201's aside). You can possibly even add a tray tower (PTF - Platform Tray Feeder) on to it to increase your capabilities.

You may also want to look at Assemblion(formerly Phillips). I have no experience with them but have heard very good things about their equipment.

Hope this helped.

Regards,

Dave

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bpan

#28899

New Pick and Place Operation | 2 June, 2004

Quad 4c's would be a great machine for what you are looking for. They are easy to learn for an smt machine and very reliable. Just realize that when you buy a machine that is no longer being improved...you can run into limitations. Those machines are easily found at other sources (precision placement machines) and the deals are unbeatable. (dont worry folks...i have NO association with ppm). Good luck with whatever you get....there are lots of great deals to be had.......

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RDR

#28901

New Pick and Place Operation | 2 June, 2004

I would look at the Samsung CP40 or 45. They have the placement rates you want even a little better on the 40. the 45 will double that easily. They handle all types of parts down to 0201 components. Depending on the camera you select (25mm) you can place .5mm BGAs and .4mm QFPs with no problems. With a standard 40mm camera you can do 1mm pitch BGAs and .4mm QFPs.

As stated above I recieve no benefit from the Samsung or anybody else for that matter.

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Ken

#28906

New Pick and Place Operation | 2 June, 2004

I personally would not get involved with any technology as old as the Q4C. I worked in a factory that had about 20 of those and was not impressed. It seemed like there was always some problem (electro/mechanical) and their service was not "world class".

Check out Philips (Assembleon). World class service, excellent equipment design. Very reliable.

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Frank

#28907

New Pick and Place Operation | 3 June, 2004

I receive no benifit from this, but I have been using Juki pick'n'place for over 7 years.

Juki machines are easy to learn and have been very reliable for us. Their service and support have been top-notch all the way (at least here in the US).

Their older KE-760 models (made '97-'00) will do all that you need. Or you can go for their new machines.

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#28908

New Pick and Place Operation | 3 June, 2004

Talk to Altus-Group they will advise you on all of your needs support, product transfer the lot these guys are really good they have all come from factories with years of equipment experience I have used them and they were excellent

www.altusgroup.biz

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#28909

New Pick and Place Operation | 3 June, 2004

You can have a look at Assembleon (formerly PHILIPS EMT) equipment. They have equipment ranging from rated speeds of 6500cph to 150,000cph. I guess their OPAL XII should be the best fit machine in terms of its capability and speed both. It can do from 0201 to 45x45mm, 0.016" pitch, BGAs, micro BGAs, CSPs, etc....

And service support from Assembleon is world class. I would certainly vouch for Assembleon

Vinit

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Scott B

#28914

New Pick and Place Operation | 3 June, 2004

We had an existing Mydata MY15 line and inherited 2 Quad lines (QSP2 and QSX1). We eventually had to get rid of the 2 Quads (major software and hardware issues) and have replaced these two machines with an addition single Mydata MY15 and are getting more throughput as a result. Our non Hydra machine is achieving around 3800cph while our Hydra machine is achieving around 7000cph. The Mydata ticks all the boxes of your specification.

Our Mydata machines have proven to be flexible, easy to use, low maintenance and well supported(UK).

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Don

#28922

New Pick and Place Operation | 3 June, 2004

Have you looked at http://www.amistar.com ?

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bpan

#28924

New Pick and Place Operation | 3 June, 2004

Hmmmm....Ken.... I probably work with 30 or 40 different types of quad equipment and rarely have problems.....sounds like someone at you facility didnt know the equipment to well.......

chow

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Ken

#28929

New Pick and Place Operation | 3 June, 2004

My Machine guy was a 4 year ex-quad Service Engineer. Prior to that he spent 6 years in a CM programming and servicing quads from QX toQ3c/4c q100 series.

These are opinions. Nothing more. I have noticed that the smallest players in the market seem to have a viciously devoded following...especially when dealing with quads. I am fortunate and don't have to justify any quad purchases by defending them. I would (and have) been equally as critical to other manufacturers....so don't take it personal.

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#28932

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

Ken...you are right on the money. I couldn't imagine someone new to SMT assembly getting themselves involved with such an old platform. Besides I would have my doubts that a Quad 4C can even handle what this guy would want it to do. 0402's on a 20 year old platform? On a Quad no less? I'd look at Assembleon first. What's a new Topaz gonna cost you?..$100K give or take. Reminds me of the post where a guy comes out and says if money were no object what would you buy and another guy suggests a 20 year old KME line that isn't worth it's weight in scap costs. Bizarre.

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Cal

#28935

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

OK I am game and will put some input here...I do like the Samsung machines for the price and they are easy to program. Another company you may want to look at is Essemtec. ESSEMTEC USA Glasboro, NJ 08028-1499 Steve Pollock Tel. 1/856 218 1131 Fax 1/856 218 1134 Mail sales@essemtec-usa.com Web http://www.essemtec.com

One thing to think about as you purchase is SUPPORT, SUPPORT, SUPPORT!!!!! Look at service people in your area. You want less than a days travel to your facility. Look at phone support. Look at applications engineering. Look what spare parts are in stock domestically. Look at training from the supplier outside of the onsite training you get.

We have three Suzuki (2000V)machines that place 12,000 CPH from 0201 to 50mm square components and 50mm x 100mm connectors. when these machines are running they run great but my support, spare parts and service people are in Japan. The machines were purchased before my time and I struggle every day with simple routine issues.

My point is there is much more than just the hardware alone. How easy is it to program, Support, and Service are the key factors I look at.

Cal Driscoll

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#28939

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

OK, I have some names to go by. I appreciate the info, especially the Quad related stuff, because my company was leaning toward the Quad, and I was concerned about its age and technology. I am going to look into the Fuji XP142E, the Samsung CP40/45, Juki, Assembleon Opal XII, and Mydata MY15. Does anyone know which of these provides great support in the Northwestern USA?

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gregf912

#28941

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

Check ATS at WWW.ATS-SMT.Com for support on any Fuji and MPM machine in the US.

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#28942

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

All due respect, these guys are in North Carolina! I am in North Idaho. 3000 miles away.

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#28944

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

They Travel and are much cheaper thatn the OEMs.

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#28945

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

It would be worth your while to look into contact systems @ http://www.contactsystems.com

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dgjjr

#28946

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

Assembleon has/had a service engineer based in Portland. I haven't worked for them for about 3 years so I can't verify if he is still there. They also have a few guys based in Northern Cal.

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#28947

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

Thanks. Portland is close enough for them to drive.

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FD

#28951

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

I know Juki has the headquarters in NC, but they have a support office in the Silicon Valley with spare parts. I know they go to the NW area quite often from that office. They offer their customers 7-day/24-hour free phone support (including holidays). It is only a short flight to get up to Idaho from San Jose. We have to but make a call and they are on the next flight up.

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bpan

#28955

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

I would never take it personal but my experience with the equipment has just been very GOOD. Just a note......I have known many former field service engineers who couldnt fix a thing....but thought they could.......and were too proud to ask for help and just continually made things worse.....haha

chow

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older/wiser

#28959

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

The very first thing is service. The current crop of machines will alleet your needs. They will also need service at some point. Where do you get it? If there are one or two service persons in the US, run, don't walk, away.

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Ken

#28960

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

Well, if they were "Field Service Engineers and couldn't fix a thing...how did they get hired"? And if this is the case then I would have to question the company's judgement and determination of my best interests for sending an unqualified, untrained representative to my site.

Don't get me wrong, I just feel these machines have a place.....a place as an artificial reef!

No harm no foul. Good chatin' with ya'.

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Ken

#28961

New Pick and Place Operation | 4 June, 2004

Rick P. is the Assembleon local Field Service Engineer. He is very good. He is stationed in the Portland Metro area.

Oregon and Washington have a very dense population of Philips (assembleon) machines. Extensive installation base.

I recently installed a used Topaz for a customer that was purchased for 20K dollars! Amazing.

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bpan

#28998

New Pick and Place Operation | 7 June, 2004

hahaha....send them to me....i will take them all.....

have fun!!

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Don

#29023

New Pick and Place Operation | 8 June, 2004

Dr. Lou,

I wouldn't recommend the Quad QSP series. A stated before it's old tech, and the feeders are junk. If your looking at Tyco (Quad), they have a new Mirae 1025P platform. It's very competitive performance/price against Assembleon and the like. I demo'd the unit and the software was easy to use. It has intelligent feeders, feeder carts, 11K per hour, 0201 to 50mm range, and a very small foot print (like 4.0' wide). Feeder capacity is only 80 8mms, which (for me) is a major draw back & the platform is new to the US so it's not proven.

-Don

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Joe Carley

#31608

New Pick and Place Operation | 8 December, 2004

MYDATA offers the best support in the industry. I have two MYDATA machines, TP-11 Hydra and TP-9. They are very flexible, reliable, easy to program and low maintenance.

Joe Carley

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CL

#31610

New Pick and Place Operation | 8 December, 2004

If it were my money and I had your specifications to achive, I would go Mydata. One platform, chip shooter, optical centering, mechanical centering, electrical verification (that works)smart feeders that work, etc.... I have worked on several platforms and was not a Mydata fan until I ran one. Definately worth looking into.

Just my $.02

Good Luck Chris

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Mario

#38874

New Pick and Place Operation | 6 January, 2006

If your company should decide to sell your Suzuki 2000v machines let me know. We have many Suzuki on our floor and perhaps would entertain the idea to purchase more if the price was right.

smtassy@colba.net

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#38876

New Pick and Place Operation | 6 January, 2006

MYDATA has many service technicians on the Western US. I believe there is specifically one in Oregon, and one in Washington/Idaho border to name just a few.

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#38915

New Pick and Place Operation | 9 January, 2006

Hi,

I have used both MYDATA TP9, MY9 and more recently MY12. MYDATA machines are just not accurate, and we did everything possible, and every kind of upgrade they had. We ended up putting in Fuji XP based machines, and the differences are very noticeable.

Anyone who thinks all machines are the same does not have any idea what they are talking about.

The Fuji's put all the components down so straight, you could visually see the difference. We used to put down about 50K parts a shift on the machine, and it could not handle it without dropping parts and misaligning parts. The new wide agilis feeders are crap and jam, plus the vision system is hardly unable to tell when a QPF or BGA has a problem or not.

I would only ever purcahse a MYDATA again if I was getting one second hand, and it was a TP model that I was picking up really cheap because I had absolutly no money.

If you want accuracy, go for a good brand such as Fuji. We have been running the Fuji's now since May, and they have never had any kind of fault in that time ever. We have never needed to call an engineer, apart from when we confirmed the lubrication process. They have also never placed a component wrong in that time that was not a component problem.

I am still unable to believe they work so well. Local support people don't really matter when the machine works right. However Fuji support has been good.

You do get what you pay for.

Regards,

Grant

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#39065

New Pick and Place Operation | 13 January, 2006

this one last posted........ was in 2004...

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#39075

New Pick and Place Operation | 14 January, 2006

Hi,

How did this thread come alive again. That's what's werid about the SMT net.

Grant

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#39076

New Pick and Place Operation | 14 January, 2006

Let's think about this, there former filed service engineers. I bet they got out of field becasue of being laid-off. Typically the NON-Performers are the first to go. Hint hint.....former field engineers! Quad 4C's when they were new to the market defined what ALL other machines were trying to do. Quad beat everybody on price, service, and placement rates. However, once you are to dog everybody is gunning for you. I disagree with Fuji being the best machine, I beleive all the machines out there have a place. Do your homework and find the best machine for your plant. We have 4 Panasonic machines that are aging and still will run circles around the Fuji's today. In the 10 years we have been running them the only major issue we have had is a hard drive crashing. Panasonic had 2 tech's on site the next day and has us up and running 6 hours later. They even pulled off all our old data in that time frame. Granted we have a service contract with them. Mostly we have to purchase new nozzles ($250 to $800 each) from time to time. Just my 2 cents worth.

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#39098

New Pick and Place Operation | 16 January, 2006

Mydata has a guy in Seattle but we have had only one time in five years we had to wait more than a day for sevice and we are in Florida and they are Boston. Most of the time you they can get you back up and running over the phone.

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#39101

New Pick and Place Operation | 16 January, 2006

Someone probably did a search and replied w/o looking at the date. What I noticed is that some threads get bumped to the top with new posts and some don't. Strange.

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#39102

New Pick and Place Operation | 16 January, 2006

#39104

New Pick and Place Operation | 16 January, 2006

Now, now, Pete. There were two posts made on the 6th, Grant's was made on the 9th.

Can't we all just get along?

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#39105

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

Hi,

I was replying to this thread appearing suddenly.

However I have run both machines, and I paid for them myself because I run my own company, and so the choices I made, I personally had to pay for. Also, anyone who's been on this forum for a while would have seen my enquiries about MYDATA originally, and then about Fuji, as when I first arrived on this forum about 8 years ago, I did not know a lot about SMT.

I have given MYDATA a lot of compliments in the past, but since putting in the Fuji's in May, I now realize that not all pick and place machines are alike, and I would never buy a MYDATA again, or any other low cost pick and place machine again. It's only main brands now, as they have reputations, that really seem to matter when you compare.

I personally think the reason the guys in Taiwan have been kicking everyones asses for so long is they evaluate carefully, and purchase based on cost per placement. They don't care about initial capital cost, but purchase whatever' required to make sure they get best performance, lowest cost, and best efficiency. I traveled into Asia myself to see what people were doing, and never saw half the brands people talk about here, but did see heavy production without the issues we had.

I also never saw people running 8 year old clapped out machines, but only the latest, as they worked hard to remain competitive against china etc.

My comments are based on hard experience, that's cost a lot to get. I hope people can benefit from that.

I know I am going to open a can of worms for saying this, but I don't know how many times I read comments here on the forums complaining about companies loosing work for asia, with all kinds of bull excuses, when half the companies I have seen in western countries have old machines, and don't think much, but just do what everyone else does.

How many times has the boss of your companies actually gone into production to run the machines and help to see what it's like, and what can be improved? I run large company, but I do it, because it's so important to everything we do. It's such an amazing thing to do because it's such a learning experience.

I know that cheap labour is a problem, but the worst thing anyone can do is loose confidence. There is other markets, other products, new workflow's, and all kinds of things that can be done.

Sometimes getting the best machines you can at any price saves so much money in rework, that you pay for them, and that's the real cost of manufacturing. Sometimes automating the IT systems so you use less office staff is the way to go, as not all cost is on the production line itself.

The learning process is the exciting part for me, and if I can help others on this forum, it's even more exciting. So I will keep slamming what I have found does not work, and complimenting what does. It's the only way to truly reward the design teams that make products that work great, no matter which countries they come from.

Regards,

Grant

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Rob

#39106

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

Well said Grant.

Sad thing is people fall for glossy brochures, hype, sales pater & numbers etc. and not actual facts.

If you want something that will run 24/7 forever you buy a Fuji, it has the proven pedigree.

Pete, don't you sell Mydata's?

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#39109

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

trk

#39114

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

Here's my 2 cents worth.....as if anyone cares??? Spend: 1 million for a machine = 1 million in R&D on the machine 100,000 for a machine = 100,000 in R&D on the machine.

if spending the 100,000, then you need to hire a qualified engineer to maintain the equipment for around 50k.

if spending the 1 million, then you can pay the operator 20k a year and dont need the qualified tech. (this does not include china...i cant see them paying anything near that amount)

You make the choice!!! Both ways work!!

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bobpan

#39120

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

I wonder what Dr. Lou ended up buying?????

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Rob

#39125

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

Hi Pete,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

My experiences with Mydata would differ from yours, but as in life, different machines are for different circumstances. We have many low volume customers that love them - they are easy to use, upgrade, source spares etc, cheap to aquire 2nd user machines etc.

On the flip side the build quality used to be suspect - especially the wiring, and as Grant correctly mentioned the larger Agilis Feeders do have problems (although I do like the 8mm & 12mm & think they are great), and they just aren't as accurate, repeatable, or reliable when used in higher volume applications. Then again, they were not designed for this.

Also... You can sell a customer an average product, but give him great service, and he'll think both you & the machines are wonderful. Sometimes the service is the difference - if you've got good customer loyalty & retention a lot of that credit has to go down to how you're looking after them.

Cheers,

Rob.

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#39129

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

Pete, Please for all of us that read this forum, explain to us what Grant has said about Mydata that is not true.

I watch this forum closely and I never remember Grant saying anything about Mydata that was inaccurate.

FYI: We have had Mydata machines since the mid 90's.

Also, I am curious as to why you say there is too much B.S. on this forum. I have found this forum to be a very valuable tool.

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#39132

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

Pete C, this forum has no value if people do not share thier real world experience. We can all do research on our own. We can all make bad decisions or good decisions based on that research because most of the data we have access to comes from the people trying to sell us the product. It would be nice if SMT magazine had equipment shootout's that told us the real accuracy or the speed or the pick reliability of all the machines out there. But they don't. This forum allows us to hear other peoples REAL experiences. It is a shame that more people dont speak up about thier experiences, good or bad. If Grant's experience is not representative of the majority of users, maybe you should encourage those people to speak up. Your comment "I have found just about everything that Grant has said about them to be wrong from my research and experience with the customers that use them." leads me to believe you only consider "research" that leads to your desired conclusion. Thats not research. He was a "customer that used them". Here you have a user that was not happy, did eveything he could to upgrade his machine (Most of it was mentioned in numerous postings here) and was not happy with the machines performance. So he is "wrong"? Maybe you should call Mydata and find out what went wrong with thier support, they had a customer they knew was unhappy and apparently could not make things right. I think Mydata makes a very good machine, for low volume fast change. That is not what Grant does, he has made that clear. He has also made positive comments about some aspects of Mydata. I was in the same possition as he was at my company and we as well went with a tier one machine. The Mydata would not have been the best choice for what we do, his feedback helped me come to this conclusion and now after the fact, we made a very good choice and I owe some credit for that decision to him. I have always been very vocal about companies that I have had great experiences with like Universal and YesTech. I have been very vocal about copmpanies I have had horrible experiencees with like Agilent with the SJ-10. But Agilent has been great with the 3070 (different group). In some casses the experiences have more to do with the people than the product, I try to keep the two seperate and make that clear. The feedback from users is important and needs to be encouraged not criticized. If your machine gets negative feedback, use that info to improve it.

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#39140

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

adlsmt

#39141

New Pick and Place Operation | 17 January, 2006

I would agree that anyone buying a new machine should run boards on it. As well I agree with almost everything you said. We did run boards on a Mydata machine. If we were shorter runs and higher mix I would have bought one. We paid a local comapny a lot of money to let us run on thier machines and Mydata came in and helped. Any mfr. should do that for you.

I think if you have an issue with something on here you should feel free to address it, but not criticize it. I posted a complaint about a Vectra's servo drives and a technician from there e-mailed me and told me it was a know problem and that there was an upgrade kit. It helped a lot. Mydata told me that the 12 and 16mm Agilis feeders did not work well as has been stated on here a bunch. They made a new one with a thumbwheel that is adjustable to fix it. But I never heard anyone from Mydata get on here and say problem solved. People should be carfull in how they use the information here but sharing should be encouraged. When I see hundreds of people looked at a thread but almost no one posts anything it is disapointing.

My point is only please dont slam someone for contributing, even if you dont agree with them. If you dont agree, your welcome to express your opinions but dont slam them for thiers.

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Rob C

#40675

New Pick and Place Operation | 28 March, 2006

I would have to disagree on this. My experience is that you should never justify capital expediture based on just the obvious up front costs alone. There is no mention of risk of recall, warranty costs, scrap costs,and so on. Which you may get from an unreliable / inconsistent machine. My experience is that these costs are usually ignored at the planning/costing stage because it may or may not happen. Its a question of risk assesment. From my experience working with drive by wire systems I would need an accurate/robust manufacturing equipment as the risk of field issues and recalls are just too great, and the margins are comparitively small. If however you are manufacturing home heating thermostat devices, with a greater profit margin, less harsh environmental requirements, the risk is a lot less and you could probably swallow the warranty/scrap costs and justify the lower capital costs. My current PCB manufacturer has justified a capable process based on around 3-4000 PPM rejected at process, giving us nearly 2000 PPM field warranty easily over $0.5M USD costs to date! They are just not used to working at the stricter quality standards of the automotive industry. In this case the Fuji machine would be fully justified in hindsight, but not at the planning stage, unless you had performed a proper assesment of the product risk.

Rob

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#41928

New Pick and Place Operation | 1 June, 2006

Cal,

I am really in need for help with my Suzuki 1000VL machine. Do you know anyone I can call and ask?

David

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Dr.Lou

#41937

New Pick and Place Operation | 1 June, 2006

I ended up buying the Assembleon. MyData was the only other brand in the Northwest with enough of a presence to consider. The MyData salesman sank his own ship by being too aggressive, and his quote dropped 45% in one week when he found out we were looking at the Assembleon equipment. Assembleon's sales rep was professional, curtious and honest. This helped. Assembleon also had a good reputation for service and support. Finally, they are built by Yamaha, a Japanese company which is known for making everything quite well (motorcycles, pianos, musical instruments, outboard motors, etc...). If Yamaha made autos, I would buy one for my family!

We've had our new line in operation for a year and a half now. Although we have nothing to compare it to, the Assembleon has worked flawlessly. We really haven't had any problems with it (except now I remember replacing a photodetector after a few months, but these are manufactured by someone else). We are now considering buying another. Thanks everyone for all their input and help making this important decision.

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Mario

#42278

New Pick and Place Operation | 19 June, 2006

If your company should decide to sell your Suzuki 2000v machines let me know. We have many Suzuki on our floor and perhaps would entertain the idea to purchase more if the price was right.

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ii-feed SMD Intelligent Feeder