Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


fiducial

vincent

#28574

fiducial | 13 May, 2004

hi, i have a question relating to fiducial, is the fiducial normally comes with the pick and place data from the custommer or we have to define it by ourself? how to set its coordinate so that the cp6 and ip3 (using Fujicam software) will be able to regconise it, and what is the machine origin? I knew that it should be set from the pin hole which is normally -5 for x and 5 for y or vise versa so what is the exception? the coordinate of fiducial should be calculate from the origin, am I right? but when I start the machine the fiducial still not in the view of the camera, if I go back to the program and remeasure the fiducial from the machine origin then if the machine excepted the fiducial, should all parts will misalign?, if I shift 2 fiducials to 2mm to the left direction, should I move all parts 2mm to the left as well? how is the machine calculate for placements using 2 diagonal fiducials?

reply »

Sully

#28575

fiducial | 13 May, 2004

Use a Global Offset for the fiducials and the parts.

reply »

newbie

#28576

fiducial | 13 May, 2004

Yeah, I've got a question. I was just hired and I just need some help. Can somebody explain to me how a pick and place machine works and how I can program it? I know you're supposed to be putting these spool like things on the back. Can somebody help me? (Give me a break!! Are we gonna draw the line somewhere??)

reply »

Ordie.

#28578

fiducial | 13 May, 2004

Nice attitude Newbie, real mature of You. This guy had a problem, and thank God someone helped him. If all of us knew everything, as You do, there would be no use for this web site. Please pull your head out once and a while.

reply »

Rob

#28580

fiducial | 13 May, 2004

I don't use the machines you have; I'm running a Siemens line. Regarding fiducials, this data should be provided by the design engineers through some kind of mechanical drawings. I usually get this with the CAD data. I don't know if there is a standard where to set datum but I usually see it in the lower left corner of the board/panel. Fiducials and all coordinates then are based off the that datum. Did this help?

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

reply »

#28581

fiducial | 13 May, 2004

> hi, i have a question relating to fiducial, is > the fiducial normally comes with the pick and > place data from the custommer or we have to > define it by ourself? how to set its coordinate > so that the cp6 and ip3 (using Fujicam software) > will be able to regconise it, and what is the > machine origin? I knew that it should be set from > the pin hole which is normally -5 for x and 5 for > y or vise versa so what is the exception? the > coordinate of fiducial should be calculate from > the origin, am I right? but when I start the > machine the fiducial still not in the view of the > camera, if I go back to the program and remeasure > the fiducial from the machine origin then if the > machine excepted the fiducial, should all parts > will misalign?, if I shift 2 fiducials to 2mm to > the left direction, should I move all parts 2mm > to the left as well? how is the machine calculate > for placements using 2 diagonal fiducials?

Vincent, Rob was right.Your PCb cad data will have the fiducials already in the file.If you use FUjicam or Circuit cam for machine programming and you work w ASCII data file to begin with, You won't have any problems.Most of the times, even if the fiducials are defined as something else (Test points,parts etc) you'll be able to distinguish and edit them as such(FIDS). When you start w gerber files that need to be digitized, your fiducials might not be in the same layer as rest of the pads ,so keep an eye for them .They are there.If they are missing though,you can "make" a test point or via hole into a fiducial.As long as your board Layers have the same origin you'll be fine. Now if I remeber well there is another offset on Fuji's aside from the lockating pin you are reffering to.A machine datum as opposed to the table datum.It is something located in one of the machine configuration files (the ones you do not edit unless you calibrate the machine).Ask one of your techs they should be able to tell you how much this offset is.This will be different on every machine but will be consistent for every program you run on that piece of equipment.When you know that X and Y offset you can type it in your Fujicam software when generating the pick and place program.I'm not sure but I think you can put this value in your line definition menu. (I haven't been working w Fuji's in four years so I'm not exactly sure where everything is anymore). For minor adjustment changes use global offsets like the previous message suggested.Other rules of thumb: Use diagonally opposed fiducials, ideally 3. Use electronic files Measuring w calipers is not accurate. Yes editing your fids locations more than likely will misalign all your parts. Contact me at Klasage@hotmail.com if you have other questions. Good luck Rob

Klasage@hotmail.com

reply »

newbie

#28583

fiducial | 13 May, 2004

You're absolutely correct to put me in my place! I've gotten off my "high horse" and put my place in his shoes. I guess after thirteen years in the industry I've started taking some stuff for granted. Maybe I should've put myself in his shoes first. Maybe I'm just a little frusterated knowing a bunch of excellant techs who are out of work that could answer his question in their sleep. I'm sorry. I'm off my soapbox. But you were right on one accored; I do know everything! ;)

reply »

Ordie.

#28587

fiducial | 13 May, 2004

No hard feelings. We all let it get to us sometimes. Take care.

reply »


RDR

#28616

fiducial | 14 May, 2004

This little bit was interesting, I posted a very similar response the other day in agrrement with newbie, I was starting to get a little ticked myself and the "going back to the basics" questions that we are starting to see more and more of. I after posting quickly edited and deleted after I calmed down but I basically had the same problems. what ever happened to training on equipment and the theory of operation? When I first started I was not given a machine and some files and told to get it done. I also am a little peeved about all of my peers now out of work and their jobs are now in the hands of non-experienced people. Lets keep in mind though that it is not the people posting here but their superiors(?) and the companies that are driving this whole get everything out of here and put it someplace else cause it is cheaper!

I hope that this does not offend as it was not intended to but I like newbie have let it get to me also

Russ

reply »

#31049

fiducial | 21 October, 2004

Right. Fiducial comes with the CAD data or the gerber files. If it doesnt, and you need to create fiducial coordinates, you may use a digitizer or a caliper and make use of the reference pin as the origin. Now if the fiducial camera focus is way out, you may play some offsetting in the PCB origin based on the actual offset between the fiducial coordinates and the actual location of the fiducial. From there, you may now be able to locate the fiducial (merely locate, not recognize). After successful fiducial capture, parts placement will be shifted. You wont like this to happen ofcourse. To work with the mis-alignment, you need to reverse the offset you put on PCB origin. Do this on the block offset. Ex: if you put a -10 for x and 20 for y in the pcb origin, put a +10 for and -20 for y in the BLOCK offset (first block).

This is a little bit tricky but it is the only way out of your problem if you dont have fiducial coordinates available for use.This works with all machines (i guess) regardless of brand and application. I've done it on Panasert, GSM, Sanyo, Yamaha, and FUJI off course.

Cheers :))

reply »

#31073

fiducial | 25 October, 2004

This is what I have come across with some of the gerber datas. Most CAD/Gerbers don't carry the fiducials because some of my customers don't have them as a standard but when the board house gets it they are the ones adding the fiducials. So send in a request to the board house and get an updated gerber file from them and request theirs. As for measuring from a corner; I always have measured bottom left (top side) and bottom right (bottom side). It really matters on what you setup is for measuring for coordinates. As for manulally measuring the fiducials I have done this and I don't like it because your parts will be off slightly here and there. If you wish to experiment with placement once your parts are on you can do the global movment of parts or edit your fiducials. One thing when moving your fiducials though that I have noticed is move them opposite way that your parts are going. I have played with this theory for years and it works. Hope this helps with some of the fiducial issues and placement problems.

reply »

Panasonic OEM Solutions

ii-feed SMD Intelligent Feeder