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Fuji Pick and Place Machines

Hi, We are looking at a new pick and place machine that c... - May 06, 2004 by

yamaha yv100gx ... - Oct 13, 2004 by raj samujh  

Grant Petty

#28423

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 6 May, 2004

Hi,

We are looking at a new pick and place machine that can handle higher throughput.

What do people think of the smaller Fuji machines. They look like they have some nice features and are fast. I saw someone's note on Panasonic and reliability. What models etc?

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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MSK

#28426

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 6 May, 2004

Have you already any fuji machine?Depend upon your requrement you can go for the machine can you tell the reqiurement i.e. types of components that yu want to handle & no of componets that you want to mount in one month/shift.

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Grant Petty

#28462

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 7 May, 2004

Hi,

They do what we need component wise, however I was wondering if anyone had info on reliability, ease of programming. We are looking XP 142 and 242 series chip shooters and fine pitch placers.

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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Rob

#28465

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 7 May, 2004

Hi Grant,

We use the CP series from Fuji - so not quite the same, but the quality of engineering and company philosophy will almost certainly carry over into the XP range.

Our machines are totally bombproof reliability wise, and the programming is easy with the right software (something like Assembly Expert & Fujiflexer), however we only use ours for upto SO8/TSSOP8 in size - we have GSM's for the finepitch & odd form.

Best regards,

Rob.

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Grant Petty

#28488

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 8 May, 2004

Hi,

Thanks for the info, and that's the kind of info I am looking for. We need very high reliability, and machines that constantly work at high speed for long periods of time without constant feeder and placement issues. We are finding some issues with the MYDATA machines currently, and I am thinking of a change that increases reliability as well as placement speed.

From what I have seen the Fuji machines look very good, however it's user feedback that really gives a better idea on how things really are.

Thanks for the info, and hopefully some other people have some feedback too.

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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fastek

#28490

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 8 May, 2004

What you need to remember is Fuji didn't make a name for itself by building this XP platform. They're strengths are/were in their chipshooters. Don't just assume that because it's Fuji it won't have reliabilty issues. I'm not sold on this platform yet and I think it is too new to get any serious feedback regarding reliabilty. And at 21,000 cph I'm not that impressed. Guess I just don't see where this fits in and what Fuji is trying to do here. If they are trying to match up with the gantry boys out there fine...if that's the case this XP better be no more than about $125K because that's what you can get from Philips at this point.

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Grant Petty

#28492

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 8 May, 2004

Hi,

That's an interesting point to consider, and I will check Phillips get more info. The Fuji machines do have some nice ideas in them, however they are a bit untested here, and no one I know is operating one, so that's why I hope someone is online.

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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smt..

#28516

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 10 May, 2004

I work with Fuji equipment For over 10yrs�. Cp3, cp4.cp6.cp7, ip1, ip2, ip3, qp341, qp242, qp351. Also, work with MYDATA, SAMSUN, and QUAD AMISTAR�. Fuji is the best in my opinion.

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smt..

#28517

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 10 May, 2004

I work with Fuji equipment For over 10yrs�. Cp3, cp4.cp6.cp7, ip1, ip2, ip3, qp341, qp242, qp351. Also, work with MYDATA, SAMSUN, and QUAD AMISTAR�. Fuji is the best in my opinion.

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Grant Petty

#28527

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 10 May, 2004

Hi,

Thanks for the info, and we are considering a CP7, as if we are going to spend the money, we might as well go all the way and get the speed.

However I have seen some video of them operating, but am yet to see one. What is the placement accuracy of these machines. Can they really pick components that fast and place them down without throwing them all over the place?!

I am hoping to get up to Taipei in a month or so to check one out and get more info.

Thanks for the advice, and this really helps. Are these machines a big maintenance problem?

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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#28529

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 11 May, 2004

Grant- Just so happens I was offered an almost new one today. Check them out and if a CP7 is indeed what you decide to get let me know and I'll likely be able to save you some money off of new.

Rick fastek@comcast.net

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vickt

#28533

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 11 May, 2004

Grant,You should take a look around at all of the alternatives out there. There are many fine solutions from every SMT assembly vendor. Fuji is not the only game in town. You should not purchase on name brand alone. If you are considering the CP-7, I would also suggest looking at the HITACHI/UNIVERSAL alternative (you won't be disappointed). Depending on your environment there are many choices to consider based on unique features, throughput, overall cost of ownership, ease of operation, etc.

My suggestion is....Weigh your alternatives before diving in.

T. Vick

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lmq

#28543

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 11 May, 2004

Hi Grant! I think the Fuji machine is better and far beyond the others base on technology, service, spare part and friendly use. Talk to end user and find out their comments. Regards! LMQ

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alwil

#28545

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 11 May, 2004

Hi Grant, a few things you should also consider are, do you have a local agent for the piece of kit you are about to purchase. Are spares and consumables readily available in your area. Can you and your staff receive inhouse training or have you budgeted to send staff overseas for full training.

I have worked with most of the range of Fuji equipment and firmy believe in the reliability of it.

Cheers.

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Grant Petty

#28548

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 12 May, 2004

Hi,

Thanks for all the advice, and we are looking at everything we know of, but have not had much info back from anyone at Universal yet. We have been interested in their machines too and are going to go to a trade show before we decide.

However I thought some posts here about peoples experiences might be a good idea. It seems like most people are happy that have experiences running Fuji machines, so that's a good start.

We can get support here, so that's also a positive. Negatives are the cost, however if the machine can do the speed, then we need it, and it's worth it.

I guess I just have no idea about these types of machines as I have never seen one operate. We just need speed, and more importantly stability.

How can these machines pick up components so fast without them flying off all over the place. I cannot see how the turret can pick from a feeder that fast. I have part of a video movie showing one operate, and it's so fast I cannot believe it works reliably!

How do the universal machines work, is it also a turret, or some other process. There is not a lot of info on the web apart from basic info, so it's hard to know. The company that sell Universal also do have a good support guy here, so that's also good.

Still getting more info before we decide....!

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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Grant Petty

#28661

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 18 May, 2004

Hi,

I have been checking into the Universal machine, and it also looks good. I am now trying to work out what the advantages and disadvantages are between the Universal or Fuji machines are. It's hard to decide.

Does anyone have experiences with both here and can provide some info on the differences?

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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Rob

#28672

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 19 May, 2004

Hello again Grant,

In addition to our Fuji CPs we run Universal machines, and although they are pretty reliable, they are not in the same league. Regarding Fuji Placement speed we hit 30K plus on a couple of boards with no issues, but you do have to consider what parts you put on the Chipshooter (ie no large can SMD electrolytics)and we don't go above SO8 as a rule. Regarding feeders, they are pretty simple and well made, but watch out for copy feeders as there are a lot around at the moment.

Good luck,

Rob.

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ricardof

#28679

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 19 May, 2004

We have in our facilities in Mexico more than 150 FUJI machines (CPs, IPs, QPs, GPs), they're in fact Bombproof, but it is not amazing to do that with 1206, SOTs on SOPs, we just feel a kind of disappointed with that 10K hours service, that means you need to apply that retrofit every 3-4 months on a 24/7 running scheme. But now technology has a trend and for sure, those CP6, CP642 won't be enough in 2-3 years, and I feel a bit reluctant aboout those XP or NXT. I think that Universal would be a good platform in Flexibility-Reliability

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Grant Petty

#28698

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 20 May, 2004

Hi,

Thanks for the info, and because both types of machines look similar, it's hard to tell which one would be best. So this kind of info really helps.

What kinds of issues do you see when running each type of machine, and how reliable are they at accurately placing components etc?

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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#28860

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 1 June, 2004

The 10k rebuild does not need to be applied every 3-4 months as previosly stated. A cp machine that is running 100% of the time on a 24/7 basis will tack up 10k hours in 12.4 months. Now we all know that this is impossible due to parts shortages, product changover, operator error, and just plain parts out issues. Besides I have worked on Fuji Chipshooters (CP6-5) that have not been rebuild and have 26K hours on them and still going strong. If you have any questions about Fuji Machines than you can contact me directly and I will be more that happy to help you,ATS-SMT.COM. Oh,btw I do not work for Fuji.

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

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Grant

#28934

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 4 June, 2004

Hi,

Thanks for the info, and I cannot get your email, but would love to hear some more about Fuji machines and how you find them. I was a little shocked when Universal said how much Fuji machines cost to maintain, however it's marketing so hard to know what's truthful or not!

grantpetty@blackmagic-design.com

Regards,

Grant

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gregf912

#28940

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 4 June, 2004

Your autmated system fired back to me that you have been bombarded with mail on this subject. I am sure you have. You can get my address by going to my website at WWW.ATS-SMT.COM from there we can discuss the issue in more detail.

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#28966

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 5 June, 2004

Hi Grant,

If you're really looking for speed, I'm sure you're looking for another machine for doing the QFPs, BGAs stuff etc. In that even, why not have a look at the long proven Assembleon FCM machine!! It is a totally different concept with UNMATCHABLE price to peformance ratio. Also the major drawback - that used to be - the changeover has been taken care of in the Multiflex.

Also in the latest A Series you can start with a 30KCPH today and upgrade it to 100,000 CPH in 5KCPH increments in the same machine without adding any new machine - just adding more heads - and I'm talking about the IPC 9850 speeds and not the rated speeds. What's more, the new A Series can mount from 01005 (0.3 x 0.15mm) to 20 mils (approx. 20mm sq.) with force control even for chips which no machine in the chipshooter category today provides. You can have approx. 200 different part nos.

Add on or remove heads without any calibration. This should be the best possible alternative if you're looking at the long term. If cost is a constraint, you can even look at the FCM Multiflex which can again give you an IPC 9850 output of approx. 65000 cph and give you once again the best price-to-performance ratio.

We have customers here who are achieving over 70KCPH on their actual production boards.

Regards Vinit

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Grant

#28979

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 7 June, 2004

Hi,

It's worth taking a look, and we are still yet to make a decision. Have not really heard of these outside the forums here, and unsure of local support too. Where can I get some more info?

Regards,

Grant

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#29048

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 10 June, 2004

Hi Grant,

In previous positions I've had experience with the Fuji CP43, CP6, CP642, CP643, CP65, IP3 & QP242. In operating, training and process engineering capacities.

Presently, I'm working with 2 SMT lines (in a process engineering capacity) with 2 Universal GSM's on each line.

In a apples to apples comparision where accuracy and reliability are concerned, I'd take Fuji any day. If the Fuji's are maintained regularly (lubrication at the very least) and there are no stupid operator crashes, they'll run very well for years. But as we know, there's a great difference in price between the 2 manufacturers.

The Universal GSM's do a good job and their GUI is a little more user friendly. They're flexible and if properly configured you can add a PTF (Platform Tray Feeder) for your larger active devices (QFP's, BGA's...) similar to the Fuji IP & QP series MTU (Multi Tray Unit).

If money is a serious limiter (as I'm sure it is) you may want to see if Fuji sells remanufactured machines as Universal does. We bought a refurbed GSM and it's been great.

If it was my company, I'd be looking at a Fuji QP242E (provided I didn't need 18"x20" flexability). They're based on a modular platform so if 2 modules and an MTU isn't meeting your needs, you can add more modules (up to 6). They're fast. Great camera options, and very accurate.

Hope this helped. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Dave

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Grant

#29077

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 13 June, 2004

Hi,

Thanks for the info, and can you provide a little more info on some of the reasons you think the Fuji is better than Universal. For example, can you explain some of the advantages and disadvantages etc?

That would be really helpful!

Regards,

Grant

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mat

#29777

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 31 July, 2004

Do you know how to control MTU magazine speed for QP341E,is it in the Fujicam part editor?

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#29787

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 2 August, 2004

Hi Grant,

You can visit http://www.assembleon.com and look at the videos of the A-series as also the FCM multiflex. If you need more info., just write to me at vinit.verma@prosemtechnology.com

Hope you find this equipment interesting - you'll be amazed at what it can do!!!

Regards Vinit

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ts

#29788

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 2 August, 2004

Hi

For throughput seimens is the best and footprint is smallest

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#29795

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 2 August, 2004

The speed control for the extend and retract is in the Part Data under Process data under MTU. John

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Christopher

#30908

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 8 October, 2004

> Hi > > For throughput seimens is the best and > footprint is smallest

Fuji Machine ist the best on the world. I working on the Cp 6,CP 7, QP 3421 and Qp 351.

Best regards

Christopher

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sdsmt

#30928

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 12 October, 2004

i worked with cp6s in 1995 and 1996. we always had missing part problems that was machine related. we had to inspect every board for missing parts. it was a disaster, imho, but i expect a chipshooter to consistently load chips.

otherwise, it was very reliable.

the panasonics i worked with from 1997-2000, otoh, were incredibly reliable at placing components on the PCB, however, they went down very frequently.

in the 2003-2004 time frame, the engineers told me they loved a siemen's machines for placement accuracy, repeatability and reliability.

fwiw...

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Vinit

#30940

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 13 October, 2004

Hey Grant,

It's been nearly 5 months since this post started. Have you already purchased the desired equipment? If yes, why not let it open to all so that this thread ends!

If not, it surprises me!! You could've rather earned $$$$$ in these 5 months!

Regards Vinit

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Grant

#30943

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 13 October, 2004

Hi,

We have not committed to any major upgrade yet, but we added another MYDATA MY12 to the line which should speed things up untill we make another decicion. This should keep us going ok for a while and then we might just put in another line. But not sure yet. Still thinking about it!

Regards,

Grant

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#30946

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 13 October, 2004

I wonder, how valuable this piece of information is. How careful did you look at the machine and found out that it is actually written SIEMENS? Are you sure it is a Siemens machine or maybe it is Sony? It also starts with a Z.

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#30952

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 13 October, 2004

yamaha yv100gx

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dscott

#30982

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 15 October, 2004

I have used fuji XP series for about 3-4 years now. We have XP1, XP2 & XP3 in our Prototype Dept. Excellent machines for this purpose. Very easy to program, can edit at the machine, placement, repeatability, reliability is just like any other Fuji equipment.

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#30989

Fuji Pick and Place Machines | 15 October, 2004

Hi,

This discussion is really getting long. Fuji and other high speed mounter is great and better than small flexible mounter when it comes to speed.But, I rather suggest a modular mounter specially for subcon companies. Let say we combined 2 or 3 modular mounter? The speed will be almost the same as the big machine. In addition, this is much better for high mix high volume operations as layout is easy and does not occupy to much space.It is cheaper and maintenance is ok too.

My previous company is currently using modular mounter and we are really happy with the performance.

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