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Stencil Printers

Hi, I know this must have been asked a lot of times, howe... - Dec 02, 2003 by

Grant Petty

#26482

Stencil Printers | 2 December, 2003

Hi,

I know this must have been asked a lot of times, however I have a "which is the best stencil printer" question.

We are on a limited budget of around US$90,000 and we need to get an inline fully automated stencil printer.

We have been looking at the Ekra, and it looks ok. We need to do 0402 reliably, and we are interested in going 0201 on it eventually. So I assume we would need under stencil cleaning features. We would also like to later upgrade to a cartridge at a later date.

Do people have any thoughts on this. Is there any other recommendations of printers in our price range, or reasons why we should increaser our budget for this?

Thanks!

Regards,

Grant Petty Blackmagic Design

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IG

#26484

Stencil Printers | 3 December, 2003

$90K is a good budget. Check out Dek and MPM. www.dek.com www.speedlinetechnologies.com/about/about_mpm.html

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#26485

Stencil Printers | 3 December, 2003

Hi,

Each people will have diff idea. If you ask me... with that $90k in hand you can get a used MPM 3000 fully automate from some dealer/broker. Very nice machine. Prices will be depand on age and option.

Good luck.

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swagner

#26487

Stencil Printers | 3 December, 2003

For half the money you can pick up a used Dek 265 GSX which are extremely reliable printers and Dek is always on the leading edge of new performance enhancing upgrades.

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James

#26488

Stencil Printers | 3 December, 2003

You can get a new DEK ELA fully automated stencil printer with vaccuum cartridge under stencil cleaning and 2D board inspection for well under $90K. I just bought another one for my second line. We currently do 0402s and 16 mil pitch with wonderfull results.

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#26489

Stencil Printers | 3 December, 2003

Hello As some one already said Dek and MPM printers are very good and reliable printers. I have been a field service engineer for over 20 years. I had to service and train on both of them. No matter which one you decide on, we advise you to buy only used printers that carry a warranty on them. If we can help in the information just ask. www.geocities.com/valuems Harry

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Dean

#26493

Stencil Printers | 3 December, 2003

....the printer may have less impact on your 0402 / 0201 quality than your stencil artwork DFM specifications or your choice of solder paste types and brands.

spend 45K on a refurb MPM1500 and the other 45K on training, spares and process development.

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M S

#26499

Stencil Printers | 4 December, 2003

I think Ekra is a good option, is very easy machine to use and is not over saturated of wires, joint cards, servo cards, and so forth, very simple for diagnostics!

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ex maintain leader

#26501

Stencil Printers | 4 December, 2003

Hi Grant,

I'm ex Fuji Service Engineer, Fuji GP 6xx is the best but for companies in ultra high tech (2 side cleaning+ long life operating, BUT not easy to teach the technicians). Ask Panasert create series is also well durable, but I newer use yust my friend. Ekra is producet in small series take care of the spareparts supliing form Germany/Europe!! I operate old 12 Y old tipe of them easy to repair by my own technicians and during 3shift minimun downtime. I like MPM also but the stencill must be jogged in and to may asking form operators at changing product.

The worstes solution is DEK Infinity( manufactured 2000-2001), it has construction problem by the axis.

(Fuji NP-133 SMT placer mc software breaking axis in the placing head each 3 monts)

Ask for a test run at your boards or wery similar product see production at an odher customer.

Good luck

06703113215@vodafone.hu

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Craig P. Brown

#26548

Stencil Printers | 10 December, 2003

Dear Mr. Petty: I woould welcome the opportunity of discussing your application requirements in greater detail. Please advise a convenient time that I may personally contact you. Thanking you in advance for your consideration of DEK.

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RicardoF

#26551

Stencil Printers | 10 December, 2003

I agree with all the comments saying MPM and DEK are OK, but more that spent those $90 KUSD in the machine, consider also the operating costs, spares, service, etc. We have had sometimes poor response to our MPM in the Mexico Plants. Try the EKRA if possible, 2 years running one machine, no spares has been changed

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#26553

Stencil Printers | 10 December, 2003

CHECK INTO WARRANTY AND SERVICE BEFORE MAKING THE DECISION ON PRINTERS. WE CURRENTLY HAVE A DEK ELA. WE HAVE HAD IT FOR THREE YEARS WITH NO PROBLEMS. THE ONLY BAD THING ABOUT DEK IS THAT AFTER THE ONE YEAR WARRANTY RUNS OUT YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR PHONE SUPPORT,OR BUY A SERVICE AGREEMENT.

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#26598

Stencil Printers | 14 December, 2003

HI, We have seen a couple of statements that we just have to reply on. One is the trouble with MPM's in mexico. I feel most of that trouble is because of the technical support and the actual maintenance in mexico, not because of the MPM's. And MPM's field support, in mexico left a lot to be desired. If your support people aren't trained and are going to another company every 2-3 months, a UP3000 will not be a good choice. Concerning support from MPM and DEk; there are some very qualified people offering support. They might be a little hard to find but there out there. Sorry for offending any one but felt it was needed to be said.

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Todd

#26603

Stencil Printers | 15 December, 2003

I would say the DEK printer I have had the best reliability with. I have used the MPM and had alot of software problems. The GSP are as metioned harder to operate. I also agree that the top of the line DEK horizon has some issues (to smart for its own good) We have ELA and not a problem but its only a year old.

Todd

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Dean

#26606

Stencil Printers | 15 December, 2003

Ahmen Brother! I had the unfortunate pleasure of supporting sister factories in Guadalajara and Jauarez. It is a totally different environment.

I had a friend at MPM that has a great story about this shop in Mexico that kept buying the Monitor Interface Light-pens. It seems that this one shop had replaced 4 or 5 pens in a very short period of time. On coincidence my friend was in this shop and actually witnessed an employee stiring a jar of solder paste with the light pen!

Reminds me of the shop I was at where the solder paste tube was refridgerated and the print operator put the tube in the microwave to "thaw it out".

Thought you guys could use a laugh.

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Grant Petty

#26625

Stencil Printers | 16 December, 2003

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback, and this has been helpful. Still not sure what we are going to get yet though. We are based in Australia, so it's also dependent on local support.

This can be a problem, because when everything is going ok, all the sales guys just love to sell you the new thing, but when things go wrong, they suddenly don't know anything about the process.

That's part of the reason we looked at the Ekra, as it looked simple to use and setup. This becomes more important when there are not many SMD manufacturers in town.

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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#26669

Stencil Printers | 18 December, 2003

I could probably have sold you a 2 year old E5 for about $35k a few months ago. I think they (two of them) are going to go the auction block now, and Ekra America may end up with them for a refurb. I'd call Steve Hall and ask him what they can do for you in that area before buying one used without support. Tell him the ex-Mackie guy sent you. ;)

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#26670

Stencil Printers | 18 December, 2003

Hi Grant, I have experience with both MPM and DEK and can say both are excellent. I am currently using a number of DEK 265's and have received good support from Vema. Remember, you only get what you pay for.

Cheers.

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SMT Eng 1001

#26691

Stencil Printers | 20 December, 2003

I have had both DEK and MPM. I have had far better success with the DEK's. They are far more reliable, require less maintainence and are on-line more than any of the MPM's I have had. I have only DEK's on my lines now.

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Grant Petty

#26692

Stencil Printers | 20 December, 2003

Hi,

Ok, and thanks for the advice, I am going to check into the DEK printers heavily, and see how they work. As of yet, I have not seen one in operation, so I have a lot to check out.

Thanks for the advice!

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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Grant Petty

#26709

Stencil Printers | 23 December, 2003

Hi,

I am now looking at a DEK as an option, and might raise our budget for this to about $150K. I am not sure which model to look at. We want to do 0201 reliably, and so we need accuracy, but we would also like to get vision inspection so we can let the PCB's go direct into the pick and place without manual inspection.

What are peoples thoughts about accuracy as we would like this printer to last, but it's got to allow us to use very small components, as we are getting tighter for space. Any thoughts would be a big help. Thanks everyone, and Merry Christmas!

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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SMT Eng 1001

#26710

Stencil Printers | 23 December, 2003

Grant, You cannot go wrong with a DEK. They are extremely reliable and accurate. You can also get the inspection you are looking for. I have DEK's on all of our lines and we are currently doing (and beyond most likely) what you are looking to do. Our boards go directly from the printer to the Pick and Place machines on a conveyor, so it sounds similar to how you are planning on processing your boards. If I had to replace one of the printers, it would definately be replaced by another DEK.

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Grant Petty

#26721

Stencil Printers | 25 December, 2003

Hi,

Thanks for the advice, and what models are you running. They have a few different models Horizon, etc, and I am trying to work out what would be best for us. I need accuracy, and reasonable speed, but also want to get the inspection options, as we want to eliminate as much manual labor as possible etc. But being able to do the fine pitch 0201 and lower is going to be critical.

We have had issues with the manual printer we are using now and fine pitch 1 millimeter pitch BGAs paste releasing. They have .5 millimeter apertures, and this has caused issues. I was hoping the greater accuracy of a fully automated machine would also help eliminate that as an issue. Otherwise I am not sure how we would ever get down to 0201 without paste release issues.

Thanks for all the advice!

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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SMT Eng 1001

#26778

Stencil Printers | 6 January, 2004

Grant, Sorry for the delay in a response, I just got back into the office from the holidays. I have 265's, Horizons and Eclipses.

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ex maintain leader

#26818

Stencil Printers | 10 January, 2004

hi grant,

why you choose not mpm is clear for me not good support possibilities localy, dek maybe a new mc not so bad as my second hand experiences

but I'm interesting your ekra, can I have the materials?

I wanna buy one thx

Szabolcs

szhorvathbp@yahoo.de

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Mauro Pinheiro

#27317

Stencil spec software | 18 February, 2004

I'm looking for a shareware software that I could use for specifying stencils (we are stencil users not manufacturers). I would like to enter some preliminary spec in a software form, such as: the smallest pad geometry on pcb (possibly selected from a library), % aperture reduction, if needs step-down, etc. Next the sofware do its calculation (using aspect ratio and other rules...) and provides the suggested stencil spec, such as: thickness, aperture shapes, type of aperture wall, if electropolished or electrofomed, etc. Thanks for your help Mauro

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Grant Petty

#27324

Stencil Printers | 19 February, 2004

Hi,

We settled on a high end DEK Horizon printer, and thanks to everyone for the info. The machine arrives on Monday, so this will be good!

Regards,

Grant Blackmagic Design

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SMT Eng 1001

#27325

Stencil Printers | 19 February, 2004

Grant, Congradulations on your choice, I think you'll be happy with it, they are a great printer.

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