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New web site

I would like to start a new web site that tracks, monitors e... - Sep 25, 2003 by Lysik  

Good point. ... - Oct 02, 2003 by Lysik  

#25844

New web site | 25 September, 2003

I would like to start a new web site that tracks, monitors etc the policy and hostile blackmail type license fees and support policies of ICT and PCB assebbly equipment companies. I would also like to have a forum where people can log their experiences and show them to the world in print. There are also some companies like UIC that have fair practical policies. They should be noted on the site as well. May be call it http://www.licensewhore.com or http://www.licenseblackmail.com. I would like it to lead to a group that would move against the evil doers in the industry That have policies I am sure are not with in the law. Any thoughts on the subject would be helpful

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#25846

New web site | 25 September, 2003

It wasn't that long ago that your beloved UIC was attempting to charge $20K to license a GSM. Are you saying they don't have a license fee structure any more? I bet they still do. I feel the fees charged by the SMT OEM's are justified as many are as low as $1,500. That's peanuts. The ICT guys however are another story.

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iman

#25847

New web site | 26 September, 2003

Your website names sound kinda like porn. Revisit your options?

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#25852

New web site | 26 September, 2003

I think its a great idea.

Panasonic wants to charge $1,500.00 for a MPAV, good company

ERSA wants to charge $15,000.00 for a Versaflow, BAD company

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kenBliss

#25855

New web site | 26 September, 2003

While your setting up that site to bash the OEM equipment companies please set one up for all the bad used equipment dealers that sell equipment with no warranty and turns out to be a lemon so the customer has to call the OEM to get a contract to get it working and a site for the customers that negotiate by unethically beating every vendor bloody on price and a site for all the customers that accounting departments do not returns calls and do not pay bills. When your done you will realize you have no more vendors to worry about.

We (all vendors) are all trying hard to meet customer needs with exceptional service, we all need to make money to stay in business and continue to expand product lines. If you have a specific unresolved issue with an OEM then bring that to the forum to find out what others have done. Bashing every OEM for service contracts is outrageous. Car dealers sell service contracts you probably have one for your car. They are pretty cheap because they have sold 10�s of 1,000�s of cars to amortize the costs of a auto repair center. The OEM�s in this industry are not selling those quantities and the service needed when needed is considerably more. I do not think you guys are realistic of what it costs to maintain the kind of service departments you expect when you call the OEM�s for help. Some may be a bit overpriced, their customers will tell them that as they become uncompetitive.

Also, I doubt many of the used equipment dealers are best friends with any OEM�s in the last couple of years.

Just my opinion Ken Bliss President and CEO Bliss Industries, Inc.

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CAL

#25857

New web site | 26 September, 2003

Ken is correct. You are focusing your aggression at the wrong people. It is a vicious circle I do not think the blame can be held to one segment of the industry. Do you blame used guys for selling equipment cheap? Do you Blame manufacturers for going to Mexico, China, Turkey, or India? Do you blame the Capital equipment guys for lic. fees? Do you blame the semi companies for making part that today can be automated? The fact of the matter is I have three PNP machines on my floor right now that have NO, zero, zilch, nodda, ix-nea, Null service, support or spares in North America. I would Love to have the option to pay a Lic fee for domestic support. So I deal with it, I invite the PNP company in and work with them on a win win solution.

Additionaly, the Industry still stinks (as it has since 2000). MPM and Ekra have kissed and made up. Mirae and Tyco (Quad) are in bed again. UIC and DEK now have China Demo labs. This is an indication that we need to pull together and work together to get out of this funk. I am just happy to say I still work in Electronics as I have seen TONS of friends and colleagues let go.

Be a fountain....not a drain.

Cal

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#25858

New web site | 26 September, 2003

Good Idea. I think there are many Bad apple used equipment dealers as well. We should track them as well. Every bad apple needs to be dealt with. OEM must make money to survive and support systems. But I must tell you for example I have found many third party service people to be much better at servicing machines that the original OEM. The need to keep OEM's solvent is very important to the future of our business however some use a license fee as a way of preventing you to buy good used equipment. (sherman aniti trust in the case of the tester industry.) There are only 2 real ICT companies today. The fee paid to them is like ransom. IF I buy a new system for the company I work for I might as well put in on the books for $0 the day I buy it because It will be very difficult to sell with out a license.

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#25859

New web site | 26 September, 2003

You are right. Since that time they have come down to $1500 to register software. Not so bad. The key is to charge a fee that would not prohibit a sale of a used system.

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#25861

New web site | 26 September, 2003

Good Idea. I just wanted the people to get the point. Any suggestions? I really want to start this forum. If we can track good and bad experiences it shows trends. See the thing is an OEM has to treat every license sale the same. For instance if they make a broker register a system they must also make a large company that uses many of their systems register a system as well. If you can show that their policy differs or is case by case you have them nailed.

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#25862

New web site | 26 September, 2003

Boeing, my point exactly. Ken Bliss, I understand your point but speaking for myself, I have no issue paying for service, or tech support. If I buy a machine new and it breaks down I pay for the part, If I sell it and it breaks down the OEM gets the margin on the part plus $15,000.00????????????? Or they wont sell the part? Chrysler may sell alot of cars but they are not doing so hot financially yet they dont charge a guy $5,000.00 to register a used car so he can buy a water pump!

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#25864

New web site | 26 September, 2003

Remember this. weather or not you have a machine registered the company is required to sell you parts. Registration is only for support and software. If you have a Part number and a company denies you parts it is illegal.

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kenBliss

#25865

New web site | 26 September, 2003

adlsmt

You have stated that an OEM will not sell you a part for a used machine that was built by the OEM and is still supported per the OEM�s standard part policy unless you buy a contract.

I will admit I find that hard to believe. Unless you are leaving out a detail or two about their specific sales process and the specific reason for that.

I would like to talk to the President of the specific company you are referring to. I will call him, President to President and I will post my findings here.

You may very well be accurate. But there has to be a reason, and I genuinely doubt that it is pure greed.

Please email me the company name offline kbliss@blissindustries.com

Ken Bliss

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#25866

New web site | 26 September, 2003

I just want a forum to track the bad apples. They are out their and people need to know who they are and the consumer should be fully aware of policies before you buy something. Sometimes they are unclear or the sales engineer tells fib. GenRad does not even have a written policy. Others make up the policy based upon mood. It is not a good thing.

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kenBliss

#25868

New web site | 26 September, 2003

Most companies do not buy new equipment based on resale value. They buy it for what it does and amortize it to zero as quickly as the IRS allows and sell it after its value is zero. Most actually lease it. For most end users I do not think your argument is valid. The costs to run a machine are analyzed prior to purchase included support and part costs. This pretty much covers costs for the end user when buying new. When you buy used equipment, I feel you are pretty much on your own. You went looking for a bargain, you found a �bargain� if it does not turn out to be a bargain that is not the OEM�s fault that is the buyers fault for not doing their homework.

I have talked to several OEM CEO�s in the last two years, they all tell me they want to support customers and keep them happy but they cannot support or re-support a used buyer for the same costs as the new buyer. More things can and do go wrong on the older machine.

The exceptions include a factory refurbished machine, which comes with a warranty.

Also if you can find local support better than factory support for less then you are all set, as long as your �better� local support does not ever need to call the factory. If they do need to call, how are they better support, maybe cheaper support, but you get what you pay for.

Ken Bliss

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#25873

New web site | 26 September, 2003

Ken, I am still negotiating a possible deal with the company I referenced, therfore I will not mention the name now. If it falls through I will let you know. However I have made it clear to them that their second user atitude stinks and is still swaying me against thier machine. As far as the costs of equipment being amortized over the life and resale not an issue, I own my company and have had to sell off equipment to stay in business a few times. If I had three to five year contracts with my customers it would not be an issue. For those that have customers like that, let me know who they are, I would love to do business with them.

I was not aware that a company had to sell you parts. I just ordered a set of manuals for a machine and was told it was against thier policy to sell them since I did not pay for 2'nd user support. BUT, they would make an exception this time.

I also bought a software upgrade without registering a machine a few years ago and when the software was defective they did not want to give me a new copy because I did not pay the 2'nd user fees. They sold me a defective product and wanted $3,500.00 to replace the $400.00 software. They claimed replacing it was "technical support". That is not right. I did end up paying the $3,500.00 when I had a problem we could not solve, it was a 5 min conversation with them but I dont hold that against them at all. Although I never use the phone support, its there from now on.

To be fair to Ken Bliss, he is in a durable goods more than a technology co. (please dont take offense to that Ken) I had a rack left over of his that came from a broker. I just bought like $2,000.00 of hardware for it to convert it to panasonic from him. If I had not had the frame, It would have been cheaper to build the whole thing myself. Bliss has been great and gave me no crap for not buying the whole system from them. That is why I will continue to use them. Let me know when the dessicant cabinets come out.

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#25885

New web site | 29 September, 2003

Good points Ken But the reality of the matter is that we are selling off some fuji equipment that even though it is 1994/1995 still has a sale value of 45-65K Each. I am replacing it with faster systems with 0201 specs. With the margins so razor thin every dollar counts. If you add up the 50K or so X the 40 or so systems we are replacing world wide it is a big number. That is why residual value is so important. We use our systems for 5-7 years and use a 5 year straight line. Any number we get for the system at the end of it's life goes right to the bottom line or helps reduce the cost of the new system via trade. Thus reducing the cost per placement or Loaded labor rate how ever you want to look at your costs.

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#25914

New web site | 2 October, 2003

Nice idea but I see problems with misleading info. I see people from company x writing in to bash equipment produced by company y.

I get a kick out of someone writing in asking about differences between 2 machines only to get responses like "consider buying this third machine instead".

I often wonder how many responses are made to promote a piece of equipment that that person sells or services.

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#25915

New web site | 2 October, 2003

Good point.

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Dean

#25951

New web site | 4 October, 2003

I recently installed some used capital equipment for a major multi-national corporation. I was blown away by their penny-pinching, micro thinking attitudes of how they felt their 2nd or 3rd hand purchase should be supported directly by the OEM. The fact is these guys had no idea how to operate, calibrate and maintaine this used equipment. Why should the OEM absorb all of the costs associated with bring these guys up to speed? It might be different if the users had invested in calibration equipment, oem training programs, software and so-on but that was not the case (purchased directly from the OEM). Then and maybe then they could have some negotiating (read "leverage") ability to offset the cost of registering the machines.

I am sididng witht the OEM's on this. Its like the saying "speed costs, how fast do you want to go". In the mean time while you are dickering around with NOT registering the software, I am plowing right past you with upgrades, applications support, field service engineering support, learning best applications and advanced opeations for my equipment (same as your equipment), impressing my current customers, future customers AND making a proffit.

Bottom line is you need to be informed on these types of issues and factor them into your cost matrix for capital equipment acquisitions.

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#25959

New web site | 6 October, 2003

I believe that having a website that lists registrations fees and problems with various companies would be a great benefit to this industry. As with all "opinion based" sites, the information should be taken for what it is, opinions and isolated events. We recently went through great trouble purchasing some equipment because we were not well informed on every companies policy on registrations fees. Brokers dont want to talk about them, because that is added cost to buying it through them. OEM's were not as helpful if we were honest and up front that we were considering purchasing used(believable so, they saw work without a commision and werent interested). Bottom line we found the equipment we wanted, thank god that we checked into registration fees, because it was $15000. So what did we do? Bought it from the manufactuer. Is that practice unethical? Could be, but it is up to each individual consumer to decide and weigh the value of the fee versus the support and benfits of paying that fee. It would be nice to have a website to go and check all the fees and policies of various companies.

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#25968

New web site | 6 October, 2003

I definately agree about OEM's skewing the data on such a proposed site. I was a service engineer for an OEM for 13 years and I know from experience; the marketing guys rake through these forums daily looking for any oportunity to promote the brand. Wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't.

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Ernie

#26081

New web site | 16 October, 2003

I would like to clarify that the $14,000 quoted on used Ersa machines is for a Service contract, not a licensing fee. For $14,000 a company who has purchased a used machine off the market or has a machine out of warranty, would get four 5 day trips from our service techinican over a year period and an additional 20% off parts needed for the used machine. If a company doesn't require that level of service, they can purchase a bronze contract for $4,500 which get's one week of our techincian on site and 10% off parts needed. If you only require phone support, we would charge a flat rate of $120 to support a machine not purchased from us. Bottom line is that OEM's cannot afford to support machines that were not purchased from them. If you buy a Chrysler car from a previous owner and it breaks down, you cannot expect to have Chrysler fix your car for free. As business men and business owners, I'm sure you are all aware of the costs that are associated with service. Therefore, Ersa has put together "SERVICE CONTRACTS" as an option for companies to get service from the manufacturers. These are not licensing fees!

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Ernie

#26084

New web site | 16 October, 2003

BAD COMPANY???? Or good Business?

$14,000 fee for a machine not purchased from the OEM is for a Service Contract, not a licensing fee. For this, you get four 5 day service trips over a year and 20% parts purchased for used machines. Considering the cost for four - 5 day trips to a facility, that's very reasonable to Service a machine that was not purchased from the manufacturer! Or you could buy a Silver Contract for $7,500 for two 5 day trips and 15% off parts. Too much? how about a bronze contract for $4,500 for 1 week and 10% off parts. Is that unreasonable???

Ersa also buys back their equipment, refurbishes it and resells it with a full warranty and service included in the machine price. Not BAD at all if you ask me.

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