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Automation Equipment Registration Fees

Hello all, We have came into this problem that I wanted t... - Jun 11, 2003 by Jason Gregory  

#24766

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 11 June, 2003

Hello all,

We have came into this problem that I wanted to get everyone's input on from the SMTNET. We have roughly four pieces of equipment from a major manufacturer that we purchased from various brokers. We have two reflow ovens, one wave solder, and a batch cleaner...all from the same major manufacturer. We have had some downtime regarding different issues with the different pieces. We have been informed that the mfr. will no longer support the equipment without us first paying a registration fee. This I can understand, as far as the economy goes, and no one really buying new equipment these days. I am concerned with the details of the service agreement, however. We are being told we have to pay 3k for EACH machine!!!!!! I am fine with a 3-5k blanket fee, but not with 12k. Has anyone else dealt with this situation lately? If this "major" mfr. is having rough times, I don't think making the little guy (the CUSTOMER and someone who's going rough times as well) pay out of the nose. There are other mfrs. out there and when times get better, my memory will direct me in the proper direction. Any thoughts??

Jason Gregory SMT Production Supervisor LaBarge Inc. (918)459-2367 jason.gregory@labarge.com

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CAL

#24770

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 11 June, 2003

Hey Jason- I saw yer post on Technet as well.

First I agree with you 100%.

It is kind of funny how Capital Equipment Mfr's can lay off Service guys, Apps guys and Customer support Guys (Guys = men/women) but charge more $ for registration fees for less resources from the Mfr's to support the customer(s).

But, I can also see the other side of the coin. Some (not all) Brokers, resellers, Used equipment people have kind of created this them selves. I know many cases where brokers would purchase a warranty from the OEM on a machine and call 1 month later to have this machine repaired. Once up and running would sell it for top dollar. So in a sense Broker playing the OEM against themselves. Still does not justify the High registration fee.

Also Capital Equipment guys do not want to support machines that are +3years old. They feel the de-rated value is at $0 after three years anyway. With machines older than 3 years it costs them extra money to support the "Mature Products" that in turn goes back to Service: Capital Equipment guys in most case would rather pay a newbie $40K/yr VS. A Sr. Technician $65K/yr...better dollars and cents but they loose the Mature product expert.

Just seems like the Capital Equipment guys are pushing customers away with that line of thinking. I would be happy to know someone thought enough of our equipment to purchase a full line of machines regardless of the origin.

Sorry for the random thoughts.

Cal Communications Test Design, Inc www.ctdi.com

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#24775

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 11 June, 2003

the registration fee became the second largest issue after 0402 tomb stoning. http://www.smtnet.com//forums/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_thread&CFApp=1&Thread_ID=5640&#Message22248

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#24780

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 11 June, 2003

I would like to comment as an employee of a major equipment manufacturer. Our direct customers pay to support the Technical Support operations of our company. It may not be a line item in the quote but, the money comes from machine sales. It was mentioned that "you have to pay more for less support." I'm sorry,if you purchased from a third party seller you have not paid for technical support from the OEM. The hard reality is "there is no free lunch." You can get a cheaper price from a third party but, if they have not invested in assests to support you after the sale; did you really save any money. It is more difficult to support a machine that does not have a complete paper trail on the phone. Our registration fee includes a visit to get the internal documentation of the machine up to date. You, the end user, will get better support after that visit.

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#24784

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 11 June, 2003

I do not agree. We were even told that if we do not pay, and we need to order parts, that there is no guarantee of receiving the right part number (since we didn't/couldn't use phone support for correct part numbers) and if the wrong part was received, we could not return it for replacement.

Keep in mind (!!!!!!!!!!!) I am not against paying for support. I WANT TO PAY FOR SUPPORT. I am just disgusted with the "per machine" fee and the outrageous cost. Blanket the fee for all mfr. built machines in the plant and keep the price reasonable. We are all having tough times. Damn it! If Ford is having financial troubles and missing quarters, I don't want to pay $50,000 for a Cavalier. If Sharp is having rough times, I don't want to pay $3,000 for a 32" TV. My memory is real good and when time comes to buy another reflow oven, I will find someone else that has reasonable support rates. This actually reminds me of a time long ago when I had car insurance through State Farm (so did my parents). I had used them for about 6 years with only one claim. My parents had been using them for 20+ years and only had two claims. Hurricane Andrew destroyed lots of Florida and to allocate monies to pay for damage claims, they underwrote auto policies, dropped me and my parents for reasons like not reporting my only claim (accident reported next day instead of directly after - same with parents...on a two year old accident). So guess what, even if State Farm called me, offered me a free year of insurance with rates thereafter of 10 bucks a month....I would NEVER go back. It's the PRINCIPLE!

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terrapinstation

#24787

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 11 June, 2003

So if I get this right, you have determined the cost of support and feel 3K per machine is to high. Please show me your calculations of supplying 24 hour staffed hotline support, 52 weeks each year. (Or hours and weeks for your OEM)

Then, explain how you have arrived at the decision that you are entiltled to this support.

Lastly, please explain how you have arrived at the decision that one machine would cost the same as 4 machines to maintain.

When we get the response, I will let you know the true cost of this support - which may be multi-national.

Best Regards

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#24789

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 11 June, 2003

Clearly someone from the equipment side will explain to me why this is an oversimplification, but what is the difference between providing support to the purchaser of second hand equipment and the guy that bought it new, assuming they're paying the same for the support? I just don't understand the justification of the registration fee.

If they have more questions because they are new at the machine, you simply charge them for more time. The up front fee for registration seems like they're dipping their hands in the cash stream for no reason other than that they can get a way with it.

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#24790

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 11 June, 2003

Terrapin,

your smugness and decision to "enlighten" us/myself to the "true cost" of support leaves me with the abrupt decision to not engage your "reply".

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#24791

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 11 June, 2003

OK Terrapin,

Here it is, roughly half hour after I vented on your reply. I still don't like your attitude to "school" me on this subject. I've been doing this way too long. But I decided that I would satisfy your attempt at "learnin" me.

First, I don't have calculations for the cost of staffing a support center. But guess what........that's not my job! My job is to be a customer and request support. The mfr. set up their support center and staffed it AND supported me for YEARS, I said YEARS, before their economic decision to charge myself and all others for what used to be comlimentary.

Second, I'm entitled to this support in that I put the trust, respect, and showcase on a piece of equipment that I know and understand. Their machine is seen by all that walk in my doors. I show my customers this machine when they walk in. Like I said, I've been doing this a long time, there are machines I like and machines I don't. I have steered many people in certain directions based on my input.

Third, you ask why it should cost the same to support one machine versus four??? This is perhaps the silliest question of all. Why would a technical support dept. care if I call three times a week for one machine or three times a week for three separate ones? This is primarily why I think a blanket agreement is justified and machine separation is not.

Now maybe you will show us the way!

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#24798

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Nobody seemed to notice, when Genrad started to collect license fee on used machines. These were different times and customers could effort the extra $ 15,000 software license fee. I totally agree with Jason that in these days, we turn the dime twice before we spend it. If the customers go out of business, so do the machine vendors. The registration fees did not pay off for the OEM. I fear they were loosing more money just by arguing the case than making money from the few, who indeed paid. After all machine vendors had to scale down in manpower, I am also questioning the quality of support you are getting for this registration fee. Again, I believe it was not a very good idea to start that registration fee to begin with. See also: http://www.smtnet.com//forums/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_thread&CFApp=1&Thread_ID=5051&#Message19564

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#24799

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Thank you, Stefan.

I agree with your reply. This coropration I'm referring to is "Microsofting" the market. They are huge and hold the reigns in this situation. I may just have to belly up and choke the cost to get support, but like I said, my memory of this situation will steer me differently when the economy turns around. Check the archives on Technet. There is a big hubbub about this topic going on right now. With good points regarding litigation and the such. We'll see!

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#24800

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Could I get the URL for Technet?

Thanks

James

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#24801

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Sure James. It's: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives/technet.html

Just use the search function. Easiest way is to go to current month and thumb through, you'll find the threads concerning registration.

Jason

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TechSuppGuy

#24803

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Jason,

You state that it is not your job to know much it costs to staff a call center. It is mine so I will present my reasons for have a registration fee for support.

You are right that in the past there was no fee. GEnX stated the reasons for that ("Our direct customers pay to support the Technical Support operations of our company. It may not be a line item in the quote but, the money comes from machine sales.") Service is supported partly by some piece of the new machine sale. Obviously new machine sales are less now. We still have new machine sales and we also have many service contract customers who PAY for our services. If tech support is talking to you they are not talking to one of our PAYING customers. We are in essence losing money.

You would be surprised how many times someone would call in and say. "I just bought this used piece of equipment from a guy down the block and have no idea how to use it. He said to call you if I had any questions. Could you walk me through the setup?" That was our No. 1 reason for these fees. How could any reasonable business person justify spending all of that time for free. I know some will argue help them for free now and in the "future" they will buy from you.... We are not out to gouge customers. We want to see a customer receive our fairly priced service and know that it was worth what they paid for it. If it is they will buy from us in the "future"

"Why would a technical support dept. care if I call three times a week for one machine or three times a week for three separate ones?"(you are right here , I believe that the point here is that if you have 3 machines you could theoretically place 3x as many calls).

You say "There are other mfrs. out there and when times get better, my memory will direct me in the proper direction." If you think that OEM's can survive until times get better by giving away free/cheap service then you are mistaken.

It seems to me that you are mostly upset about the cost. You seem to believe that service has a value and should be paid for. Think about how much money you are making with the machines you purchased and then determine if $3000 per machine is a lot of money. When someone buys from a third party broker/refurber/other user they are taking a risk. I believe it is irrational for anyone to expect the OEM of this equipment to incure part of this risk at their own expense.

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CAL

#24805

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Amen Jason- I have been fortunate and worked on both the Customer and OEM side.

Regardless of who, what, why, when for the machines A customer is a customer is a customer and all should be treated on an equal level (unless that customer becomes a liability and can not pay). It is a fact that large Capital equipment Mfr's are taking competitors machines as a trade in then turning around and selling them to brokers.

Point is "PRINCIPLE". I can by a Car from any one at any time at any cost and still get an extended warranty from the Mfr's at a reasonable cost. Just because I have $100K to spend on a machine I should only look at Machines that Are NEW for $100K? No Way. If I can get a 2 year old BMW for the price of a new Ford Taurus....I would be nuts not to do it.

The Principle just drive people away...it does not attract them. There are customers that buy the warranty and never use it....Does the OEM provide them with a refund...Absolutely not. Its a fine line of Balance.

We are not asking for OEM's to be like Fast food (low price low quality gut fuel) But nor do are we asking for Ruth Crist's quality at Taco Bell prices. We are happy with outback.....Medium Cut, acceptable price.

If I were an OEM and knew Jason purchased our equipment knowing all the deals and choices available I would be Jump for joy. Especially knowing the current industry has 40% less people and companies to sell to.

OK all out of analogies.

Cal

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aadams

#24806

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Using the used car analogy... A used car can be serviced and parts can be acquired for it almost anywhere but, you make choices to protect your investment. You theoretically can purchase the 2 year old BMW from anyone and get it serviced at Uncle Ben's cheap garage, see how well the service and repairs are done compared to taking it to a BMW dealer. BUT the dealer will cost you more. Shall we write BMW and tell them their prices are to high for certified BMW mechanics?

Using your food anology.... Do you call Outback Steakhouse when you have leftovers for lunch and it doesn't taste the same as it did the night before ?

Buy your used equipment, don't pay the registration and get it serviced from whomever you want. We all have choices. Apparently there is a benefit to having OEM input and support, pay for it. All customers should be and are treated fair,the definition of customer is "one that purchases a commodity or service". Maybe you should contact the person you bought the equipment from because you are certainly their customer.

The decision is yours in how you want to protect your investment. I personally bought used equipment, paid for the registration, ended up buying a warranty, and I am still ahead of the game in reference to money spent on capital equipment.

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#24807

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Again,

I want to pay. I am willing to pay. I just don't think I should pay "per-machine" or pay more than, say, $5,000. $12,000 for four machines is just plain rediculous in my book. Besides, the post made earlier that the per-machine is based on the theory that one will call four times more often is not correct thinking. So what, if I have a lemon machine versus four good machines, that should not dictate how much I pay for support.

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TechSuppGuy

#24810

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

The way we do it is $5000 for 1 machine, $500 each additional machine....Anyway it is correct thinking when costing/pricing of a product or service is being determined. How is the person determining the price to know how many times you will call? Historical data and basic assumptions must be made so that one price can be set for all situations. We do not determine the price randomly for each customer. maybe you will call one every 3 weeks but another customer calls 4 times a day every day (this happens we have data to support it). In the long run they should balance out....

If the price was $1000 per machine would you be upset? That would be $1000 less than what you think is fair. At the end of the day it is all about money.

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ServGuy

#24811

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Yeah, what Techsuppguy said. But further there are a few more points. The first is in the current market situation far less new machine are being purchased and far more are just changing hands. In the past the ratio of warranty machine service phone calls far exceeded those of 2nd hand user. Therefore, we could overlook the fact that they were 2nd hand and treat them equally. Now, the majority of our calls come from those who have never bought a machine from us, new or used EVER! In order to be classified as a customer wouldn�t you actually have to buy something from us? Why should we help you solve your machine problems on the phone for free? It�s like �shooting ourselves in the foot�. We want to keep our staff and offer you outstanding technical telephone support. We really want to help you solve your own problems over the phone. It�s the fastest most efficient way to return it to production. I do not want to be forced to give no, poor, vague, or even misleading telephone support so you are forced to pay for an on-site service call. As for the price, in this case $3000, I guess that it�s a one time fee, or another words LIFE. If in the course of the machine�s life the technical telephone support saves just ONE on-site service call, you are ahead of the game. Frequently people use �automobile� analogies in this case. Go ahead, call the local car dealer�s mechanics and ask them to walk you through the repair of your car, also, ask him if you can borrow some of his special tools, and email some instructions too.

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#24812

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Yes, I am a customer. I've bought brand new machines from this mfr. before. Many times, actually (through sales reps.). And when their tech support helps us troubleshoot a problem down to a component, we actually pay the three, four, five times the actual price of the said component from them (knowing that the same part from the actual mfr. was cheaper). As far as the fee goes, I understand that it does not cover intercompany, intrafacility relocation. If we move a machine to a different plant, we will have to re-submit the fee. And as the car analogy goes, if I buy a Taurus from Joe, and he bought it from Mike (who originally purchased it from Ford) and I take it in for repairs, I don't expect John, the service guy to request $3,000 for registration fees.

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Steve

#24813

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Varied opinions on this thread spread faster than wild-fire. First, I must say that analogies to auto dealers are a bit flawed. Business to Consumer is one thing. Business to Business is a completely different ballgame . . . no sense of comparing the policy/rules of one with another. As an objective (not an end user of a P&P machine nor do I work for an OEM manufacturing such equipment) reader, both sides make logical oints as to why the fee is/isn't justified. It seems those who are hard hit by the whole "fee" policy are either owners of the equipment who became owners before the policy took effect (ie. bought used, never paid the fee, got "support" in the past, now . . .well zilch) or those who are simply misinformed and buy used only to find out later on that they are stuck unless pay the registration fee. Companies looking to buy used must be educated as to the whole "fee policy" if they plan on any support from the OEM. Of course this involves some $ from the OEM and honesty from the used dealer. Not likely from either party.

Just a thought, if the registration fee is essentially for phone support, why not reduce the base registration fee from say $5k to $2.5k and charge the customer a flat fee for phone support (i.e. $100 per 1/2 hr. increments)? It seems that this should discourage excessive phone tie up by there is say it, morons.

If P&P mfg.s were publically traded (and independent, i.e none of that Dover Corp crap) the public could certainly have the opportunity and the right to examine their financial records. Always wondered what is the profit margin of an OEM in a 2 billion dollar industry. On the other side, in the defense of the placement machine OEM's, those nice brochures don't come cheap.

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#24815

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 12 June, 2003

Jason I am an equipment buyer part of my job is to be knowlegable in every make and model we look at, registration is a calculable cost going in before penny one is spent many brokers and oem's know who I am and I will rage about registration, however much to my own chagrin the cost of registration is always justified. 3K for a machine is a deal and you will almost always get a registration inspection with this fee. If you don't need Help with a machine don't buy registration, in the united states it is illegal for an OEM to deny access to spare or repair parts simply because you have not registered however they are fully justified in denying you an education on their equipment Knowledge is money (note: return rights vary from state to state know what is legal for your state apply that rule to your purchases and you will do okay). I have always gained knowledge from these service people even from the bad ones. I get tips and visual education with each new piece of equipment from service people who warn me of pitfalls not included in the manuals. Yet I still get a kick out of not registering a machine and have it run beautifully. All Have a Good Day on Both sides.

Scott

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#24824

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 13 June, 2003

Interesting! Several years back I had a through hole machine which was purchased through a broker. I needed a replacment part and the machine manual have a part number which I found out as superseded by a new part number. Upon calling the QEM technical support for the current part number, I was told because I had not paid the "fee" they would not tell me what the current part number was.

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#24825

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 13 June, 2003

Interesting! Several years back I had a through hole machine which was purchased through a broker. I needed a replacment part and the machine manual have a part number which I found out as superseded by a new part number. Upon calling the QEM technical support for the current part number, I was told because I had not paid the "fee" they would not tell me what the current part number was.

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#24826

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 13 June, 2003

Larry

Fun, isn't it?!?

Jason

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#24827

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 13 June, 2003

Well, I really never understood why. It was a custom part for that model/make and they would of been the sole supplier. All I wanted was the new part number so I could purchase it.

I know that the above posts are saying automoblies are not the same, but if I went to Ford and asked them for the part number of something off a Mustang, they would give it to me without having to purchase a fee to talk to them......

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TechSuppGuy

#24828

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 13 June, 2003

We only charge for technical support/troubleshooting advice. We will give out part numbers or schedule hourly charged onsite service.

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iman

#24830

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 13 June, 2003

I would say, if one guy buys used machine from a "dealer", the dealer ought to cover the registration fee up-front for the buyer as part of a complete package, UNLESS the buyer himself/herself asked for a discount that purposefully omitted the requirement of this registration fee.

Then again, this thread is ongoing about the justified asking of registration fee by the OEM?

It would appear the logic OEM charge by a flat-rate charge on the telephone inquiry support-line conversations makes sense, instead of charging a up-front "lifetime" reigstration fee.

For OEM this makes helpful sense as even if OEM says the registration fee is for lifetime , when we factor in the inflation surge we might say current salary calculations won't equal future salary rates unless the OEM already has over-charged the asking registration fee with inflation etc..hidden into the asking registration fee price?

Personally I am against registration fees as OEM cracking their potential "inquiry" customers does little to "WOW" these customer into long-term growing partnerships.

As bedtime reading material for the OEM who seeks to improve their service, I suggest reading the book: "How to Drive the Competition Crazy, by Mr. Guy Kawazaki".

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#24836

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 16 June, 2003

I don�t see how we could make any impact on the OEM�s to review their decision on the registration fees. Companies, who used to make things happen, are the big ones and they don�t care and don�t buy used machines. You could: Ask the broker/ dealer for a third party contact of your equipment, find the manufacturer of the part you require and buy direct from the manufacturer instead the OEM, buy more machines and cannibalize for good parts, share technical information and manuals with us.

I can�t help you with your ovens/ cleaner. In case you don�t already know, my expertise are the Siemens machines http://www.steering-inc.com

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A J. Morin ...of A. R. T. (Automation Resources & Technologies)

#24887

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 19 June, 2003

I would like to say that if anyone is having problems getting technical support service for their equipment and have not registered their equipment and paid that fee,you may get service by contacting A J Morin (of ART) and we may be able to service your equipment, from the technical side. Parts may be an issue, but I have a connection to get most parts. We are especially strong on Universal Instruments Corp. equipment... and do have top knowledge on old Through Hole equipment (stand alone & combo). Training classes, and Process/Manufacturing consulting can also be scheduled rates are: $150 p/h inplant & $50 p/h travel if destination is reachable w/o air travel air travel requires $100 p/h then the $150 p/h inplant Please call 508-965-3771 for further inquiries.

If anyone is looking to sell Universal GSMs ... 1997 and up... please call me at the above number.

thanks in advance ... AJ Morin

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Bruce Quigley

#24937

Automation Equipment Registration Fees | 23 June, 2003

To all involved in this thread,

The topic of registration fees has been one of numerous conversations within our company. Being the North American Service Manager for Vitronics Soltec, I have been in many. These conversations also included many of the other OEMs and inquiring how they were dealing with the used equipment and any incremental charges caused by such a transaction. I am pleased to announce Vitronics Soltec has never charged for phone support on any piece of equipment we have manufactured.

There are however, a number of driving factors that have caused other OEMs and us to consider fees. It is a fact that the sale of new equipment, installed domestically, provides financial support for a Service Team. Registration fees are viewed as an alternative revenue source to support the service function. One of you had mentioned that there was a question you had regarding the lost of Service professionals and charging more for less service resources. The premise is that the generation of revenue from Reg. Fees will add financial strength and eliminate the lose of further resources. Do not consider this a reason or justification. It�s just the plain fact.

At Vitronics Soltec, we would rather have our equipment active and producing revenue through field upgrades, part sales, and training programs than sitting idle in a warehouse somewhere. The used equipment market has provided us with many new customers. We are in the process of developing a program that welcomes these people to our organization and provides them with the new customer entry form along with all the accounting criteria to set them up in our internal systems.

However, we have some concerns that required us to change the way some of the phone support is being handled. For instance, if we get a first time user of our equipment who is having difficulty even turning on the equipment, I have instructed Technical Support Center to cut the conversation short and recommend that the user invest in an onsite training cession. As one of you had previously indicated, we can not stay on the phone for hours trying to assist these individuals. Most of the used equipment doesn�t even have the manuals. These customers have made an investment in our equipment, used or new, and we must do all we can to allow them the ability to maximize their satisfaction. I think paying for factory training or installation is an investment for success. Our best new equipment customers send their employees for training all the time. They understand that it�s a partnership that requires efforts from both sides. A risk with factory technician installations is the assumption that when the installation is complete the light will be green and it�s a done deal. More times than not, further investment in parts is required.

When evaluating used equipment, there are a number of areas to consider. Most warranties are not transferable. If the used vendor is stating this, I would recommend you call the manufacturer for complete clarification. Our�s are not. Also, this would give you an opportunity to inquire about service fees. Thoroughly inspect the used equipment. We have seen some incredible deals, but we have also seen some incredible disasters. Upon inspection of some of this equipment we have seen welding of broken frames and machines labeled one thing and being completely different. Also, since the car analogy seems to be the norm, most of you would have a used car inspected before buying it. Two BMWs without oil changes would cost you more than a new Taurus. Maintenance is such a critical component to any machine longevity. We have actually turned away two rebuilds due to the contamination of flux and apparent lack of maintenance.

Finally, one of the major driving factors in our decision not to assess a registration fee is Customer alliance and satisfaction. We feel that if we support the used equipment buyer that eventually they will want, no demand, our current technology. We believe that customer satisfaction is the key to repeat customers.

We have worked with many used equipment vendors and consider them reputable. We will continue to try and stay the course regarding the registration fees. I thank all of you for your feedback and input.

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