Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


cdowny

#24696

"New" pick and place ? | 4 June, 2003

I am looking into pick and place for medium to medium-high production with semi frequent changeovers. I have been looking for a little while and nosed around at APEX also. I am not interested in any used products, I have been down that road before and would prefer to go new with a new machine warranty, support, etc. My general question is, what company with a track record has got new equipment? What I am seeing is the same platform with minor (if any) improvements, most of the platforms I have looked into don't even have those. Are the P&P manufacturers laying low with products until the market improves? I am not necessarily looking for a brand new wizz-bang machine with power windows and cruise control, but I have noticed a certain "status quo" with the manufacturers at the moment and I am curious if other people have noticed this.

reply »

kadaba

#24698

| 4 June, 2003

dear sir

some of the people who are doing some more addition to their existing machines and trying to bring in new technologies, MYDATA FROM SWEDEN, UNIVERSAL JUKI

MOST OF THE PEOPLE ARE BRING IN CHANGES IN FEEDERS,SOFTWARES ,HANBDLING TOOLS AND DEFINITELY NOT ON THE BASICS OF THEIR MACHINES BUT STILL WORTH TO SEE.

DO HAVE A LOOK AT THESE MY PREFERENCE WOULD BE MYDATA.

reply »

#24701

| 4 June, 2003

Did you stop by the Contact Systems booth at APEX? If not, check out the C7 platform at http://www.contactsystems.com

reply »

Garth

#24702

| 4 June, 2003

At Apex my company met with representatives of many manufacturers. We actually sat down and discussed finances and purchasing options with Assembleon and we were given some prices that were show specials only. Later they "relented" and said they'd hold the quote for 30 days. We haven't pursued anything yet so they called us and told us that they'd give us the "special" pricing any time we choose to order.

I think that right now the big name companies are voraciously hungry for sales and it's a buyers market. In 2002 my company purchased two new L Series P&P machines from Automated Production Systems, http://www.apsgold.com and while we had some initial hiccups they are running incredibly well for us and they meet our current needs with some room for growth. They definitely don't have all the bells and whistles but the cost is very attractive.

My company is an OEM and we made a choice not to outsource at all. Our philosophy also is that we don't want to do changovers if we cn help it so we loaded up with feeders and keep them loaded all the time. We design our products to use existing parts wherever possible. Yes we do lose out on the ability to optimize the build (ie. putting the most commonly used feeders closest to the board to reduce travel time) but we gain in not having to do changeovers. It works well for us. As well, the total cost of two machines with LOTS of feeders is approaching the base cost of some high end machines with few feeders.

I recommend that you seriously crunch some numbers to determine what you really need. What are you using now? Do you really need the speed? Do you really need the features? Can you live without some automation? These are questions that you need to decide upon. Eventually my company may have to go to the higher end machines although we will probably look at a third APS machine and a second shift before we make the jump to that level of capital investment. It doesn't matter how big your company is, high end machines take a big chunk of your cash and I just feel that if you can delay that as long as you REASONABLY can that you're better off. For now our L Series are cranking boards out like crazy and we are reaping the cost savings benefits.

reply »


CAL

#24704

| 4 June, 2003

Given the current times and economy Go with the companies that directly manufacture their own products. Both Siemens and Universal (UIC) have new platform geared for the industry you describe. I do not think UIC was at APEX and Siemens did not release the machine until recently. UIC (www.uic.com) new platform is called Vantis and Siemens Platform is called Siplace C-Series Both are top notch. My Data has come on strong in the last 3 years and I have heard nothing but good stuff from there product lines (esp. Software, I understand it is one of the nicest to use). Assembleon (Assembleon.com) has always had platforms that bridged many types of manufacturers.

Contact Systems,Pannasoni-create, and Fuji are additional companies worth looking into

I have used this statement before on SMTNET a million times...The machine is only part of it...Service and Customer relations is the other 80%. Got to have good service (Applications, Sales, Field Service).

If you look at Mirea, Samsung (who recently had to replace sales mngr and service mngr), Juki, Manncorp, APS, Fritsch, Beamworks, Celmacs, Mimot, Tyco, and sony-yamazen take a long hard look and speak to people who bought from them to get a good feel...be extra careful when evaluating. Not saying any of these are no good but just need to becautious.

reply »

#24855

| 17 June, 2003

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with these machines but I'm sure the capabilities of the current platform are good enough for your needs.

I wouldn't suggest jumping into a new platform unless your shop is full of very highly trained engineers and techs. Let some other shop be the test case dummy for the new and "improved" platform. No offense to Cal but he doesn't have any these new platforms from UIC and Seimens in his shop so he's going off of what he's been told.

These down and dirty OEM prices are not here forever I might add. The used equipment that saturated the market is drying up and you will see OEM's raising prices very soon.

reply »


CAL

#24858

| 17 June, 2003

FASTEK- You are correct! No offense taken- But good point.

We went the Route and got the Toyota version of Pick and Place. Not very stylish, but runs on demand and places accurate. Are there things I would change?? Yeah man. But find me a machine that does not and I will swap it for the Bridge in New Mexico I have.

I do know Siemens Very well as I worked there for 5 years...And they traditionaly always have SW issues (Who doesn't)with the introduction of new machines. Has that changed to date since now the SW is being done state side...Dunno

Cal

reply »

Garth

#24938

The machine is only 20%???????? | 23 June, 2003

You feel Service and Customer Relations is 80% of the product? To me this statement implies that 80% of my total interaction with the machine is with their service and/or customer relation departments. You must enjoy having your machine down.

I want to buy a machine that runs. I want it to run each day, every day. I want it to be reliable. After my staff are trained the only contact I ever willingly want to have with the manufacturer is if I want to buy more feeders or perhaps some other option. I never want to have my staff use the service department. Now realistically the machine will eventually break down (HEAVY emphasis on eventually) and some servicing will be needed. I can tell you right now that if I have to deal with the service or customer relation people 80% of the time then that machine is being returned as fast as I can get rid of it. In a five day week 80% means I'd be dealing with the manufacturer for four of those days. One day in five of no problems is so far beyond unacceptable I can't even describe it.

To me a 'reasonable' rate of failure would be once a year. Anything much more than that and I'd be getting awfully tired of sealing with serive issues on that machine. I last dealt with our pick and place manufacturer in April and I think that one of my staff did call them once in May with a question.

reply »


CAL

#24945

The machine is only 20%???????? | 24 June, 2003

Sorry let me explain. It is a ratio. When buying a machine 80% of my evaluation is with the Support. The other 20% is the machine its self. I read the Brochures and Capabilities to narrow my search to the machines meeting my needs. From there i am calling user references, additional customers, looking into the organization, and suppliers. Once this data has been compiled I visit the OEM for a demo and evaluation. After that the search is narrowed further to three machines. At this point I drop my own board and parts on them to program and run......eventually the best machine usually prevails.

When you factor time down, loss of revenue due to down time, loss of business due to Applications issue, Maintenence, Replacement part pricing,Time to delivery, Express Shipping charges of parts, Sales interaction, idle Operator overhead, loss of parts, and so on it has BIG TIME meaning and I want people in place to minimize this. I refuse to use a company that the Controller is the Service manager, logistics manager, marketing manager, and IT specialist.

I Quote "I can tell you right now that if I have to deal with the service or customer relation people 80% of the time then that machine is being returned as fast as I can get rid of it" This is why all the homework is done well before the machine hits your factory and typically for me it is 80% of the reason I buy A,B,or C's machine.

reply »

ii-feed SMD Intelligent Feeder