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Used Equipment Support

The market is ripe with used equipment out there. So a smal... - Oct 30, 2002 by FD  


FD

#22184

Used Equipment Support | 30 October, 2002

The market is ripe with used equipment out there. So a small CM, such as us, are looking to find a good deal out there.

I am concerned about being able to get service support from a PnP manufacturer if we buy equipment on the used market.

Particularly looking at Siemens, Juki, Universal, MyData, and any others some of you might have had trouble getting support for a used piece of equipment.

TIA!!

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Mattias Wennberg

#22185

Used Equipment Support | 30 October, 2002

Regarding Mydata, that is no problem. You can call the people at Mydata Automation, and get a service contract. As for the others I haven�t got a clue. Regards from Mattias W

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#22194

Used Equipment Support | 30 October, 2002

Universal was tough to get support on any used equipment that wasn't sold by their company. This was about 4 years ago. Getting any technical support and part number for spare parts was a nightmare

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#22195

Used Equipment Support | 30 October, 2002

Just make sure you factor in a registration fee before you buy the equipment and you will be fine. The prices range from $2,000 to $5,000 for registration from most of the manufacturers. Once you register the machine and as long as it is still supported, you shouldn't have any problems getting technical support and spare parts access.

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Jeff Park

#22197

Used Equipment Support | 30 October, 2002

I purchased a used 1993 JOT stacker and when we recieved it the battery in the Omron Controller was dead so the program is lost. I have tried to get a copy of this program directly from JOT but they can not locate a copy of it as they say they have changed their systems 3 times since 93 and it was lost in the upgrades. If any one has this machine, or a copy of a ladder program for it would be greatly appreciated so I can get this machine up and running. Type: JFIFO-1 Date: 3793 No:373

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Frank

#22203

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 30 October, 2002

What does it mean to 'register' a machine?

Pay the fee and get service?

Sounds like extortion...

Does this happen in other industries as well?

You can easily pay $60K-$100K (the price some new low end machines) for some exotic cars and you don't have to register it to go to different dealerships to get service.

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CAL

#22206

Used Equipment Support | 30 October, 2002

Jeff as far as ladder Logic it should really be quite simple for JOT to configure in fact most people with PLC experience can get this machine running. Look at the PLC in side AB Slick 50, Gould/ modicon, GE, Siemens are a few options of the PLC inside. Look to see what PLC is inside and contact some local industry that may use something like this. Also, I do know some times we used a trade college that teaches PLC programming for students to do some programming (it's economical this way).

Most Pick and Place Equipment manufacturers have warrenties that can be purchased for each machine. Keep in mind the older the machine the warranty price may go up as mature product parts are hard to get. Stefan who is a regular to SMTNET can provide third party service for Siemens equipment. There are a few good third party companies that can provide a high level of service with out going to the OEM. Rememberthe OEM's will tend to charge more for a warranty on a machine purchased from out side of there organization. An alternative is to go right to the OEM themsevles with the deal you are getting from the Used Equipment company, they may match the offer depending on the deal. I suggest staying away from brokers unless you have full 100% knowledge of the equipment you are buying.

Cal

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#22210

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 31 October, 2002

Call it extortion if you will but it will be the best money you will spend over the life of your machine. It is nothing compared to the cost of unexpected downtime you will incur....with no support to help you out of a jam.

Think about it this way. Suppose a customer buys a new MV2F chipshooter from Panasonic for $450,000. Included with this machine is 24 hour support from the technical hotline, a newsletter with maint. tips and troubleshooting facts and access to their on-line spare parts database.

You go out and buy the same machine on the used market for $100,000. Should you expect the same service and support as the company that paid list price from the manufacturer? This support costs Panasonic money and in my opinion a $2,000 registration fee is pocket change when you consider how much you are saving on the front end. I sell used equipment and I have customers who refuse to pay to register their machines and everytime their machine goes down they scramble for 2 or 3 days to find parts and service because they wouldn't pay $2,000 to get support...which would have had them running again in one day. Jumping over dollars to pick up dimes is how I would classify that.

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#22211

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 31 October, 2002

One other thing. Contrary to what Cal suggests, don't buy a warranty from the manufacturer. Unlike the registration, this is a waste of money and is loaded with pitfalls.

The best thing you can do is be an informed buyer. Remember, this is not a car that simply depreciates over time as you slowly wear it out driving. It is a critical part of your firms survival that makes you money! Decide what you want and get knowledgable about that particular machine. Be able to ask the right questions and once you get to that stage then start talking to re-sellers. If you know what you're talking about you'll know more than most of the brokers out there and it will become obvious who they are. Eventually, you'll find the good ones....ones that will provide support and warranties with their equipment. These are the guys that will put you into a good, solid piece of equipment and stand behind it....plus save you a ton of money.

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#22212

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 31 October, 2002

I have read a number of discussion relating to cars purchases and it maintenance .

As far as I know , in cars, you drain your money on that piece of luxury , however, for production equipment , you are investing to grow your money , we are all arguing on the rate of money growth , thats all !

Paying for a service to reduce nightmare is not extortion , we are again trying to form a steep rate of money growth.

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Jim M.

#22214

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 31 October, 2002

There is an old saying that i try to follow called "Your Price is too high"

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's unwise to pay to little.When you pay to much, you lose a little money, that is all. when you pay too little , you sometimes lose everything because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting alot-it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it's well to add something for the risk you run and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better."

John Ruskin 1819-1900-Author, critic, British Philosopher, Artist

I've sent this saying to many manager's over the last 20 years.

Jim M.

Jim

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#22217

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 31 October, 2002

Sorry if I offend anyone, but service and maintenance contracts are extortion. You will get waaaay overcharged for something that any decent tech with experience should be able to do for you.(For a tenth of the cost)

I don't care what anyone says.I have worked with this equipment for a long time. You pay for a service contract, and you are getting taken to the cleaners.Ask any former field service engineer from an OEM machine manufacturer what they do when they come to do scheduled maintenance/service calls.It is far from rocket science! With the way the market is these days it is my opinion that you have to be insane to pay for something like a service contract.

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#22218

Used Equipment Support | 31 October, 2002

Contact Systems has a second (third, fourth, etc) owner support policy. There is a fee which varies for the various products. This fee includes a three day comrehensive training and entitles the user to unlimited phone support. The training is the key. I have seen references to buying used cars and this is an absurd anology. Of course if I buy a used Benz they would be more than happy to service it. They make more money on sevice than they do a new sale. I wouldn't expect them, however, to dedicate a technician for a day to talk me through an oil change over the phone.

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ricardof

#22222

Used Equipment Support | 31 October, 2002

When we buy equipment from a broker or used eq. dealer we try to support that equipment with our own skills, and this is achievable for new equipment or equipment similar to that one we're using. But when we buy older platforms or a machine with old software, then we suffer the cost of not paying the registration. I guess we can sometimes pay registration when we consider that it's worthy, and in some cases we can support that machine, it's a matter to analyze if we consider we would require the manufacturer support or not.

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#22234

Used Equipment Support | 1 November, 2002

Thank you, Cal. Indeed I can offer quality support and service on Siemens machines. For the current low prices of used machines, you may want to consider to buy more machines and compensate for down time. As a registered customer you pay $ 40,000 for a placement head. As an unregistered customer you buy a machine with two heads for $ 30,000. Also, all service parts are available without registration fee, when purchased in Europe. www.steering-inc.com

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kenBliss

#22237

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 1 November, 2002

Gimme a break

I am rather disappointed with many of the comments here. Most appear to think that the OEM should supply what ever is needed and when ever it is needed and not charge for it or just do it cheap. Or you think they overcharge for it.

I assume most don't understand the finances of a company and how it makes money. You people that are gizmo OEM�s complain, but you beat up your own subcontractors on price to build a product and then you charge a fortune for the latest gizmo. The contractors are beating each other bloody on price to get market share.

People, business is business. The cost of a machine and or the cost of service is secondary. Can you and will you make a profit with it. A down machine is not producing anything but headaches, buying the wrong machine will not produce the product consistently. You need to be running to make money.

Any buying decision should be based on �What do you need� �Who should I buy it from� �Can I make money with it� �what will it cost� cost should be last not first. Cost is the total cost of operation including acquisition cost, freight, installation, electricity, Maintenance. If one machine can do all these things cheaper and meet your needs, why would you pay more. That is what competition is all about.

When you are buying used equipment for a nickel on the dollar stop complaining that you did not get a good deal overall. Instead take a look at the true cost over 3-5 years for all the above, you may find a good used machine and get a great deal that will indeed prove to be a bargain, but don�t get mad at the machine OEM he needs to pay all those people to be there when you call and he did not make any money on the sale of the used machine. Remember that �extortion cost� is actually real value, but it is built into the sale of a new or rebuilt machine when you buy it from the machine OEM.

Instead of complaining about the OEM, do two things. Send a letter to the president of the machine OEM and state the facts and your complaint and what you want done about it, give them a chance to fix the problem in a fair and equitable way. Second, be reasonable.

Ken Bliss

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FD

#22247

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 2 November, 2002

Give me a break:

If I buy a new machine from them they will make their sales commission off of me, and after the one year warranty they will charge (for example) $100.00 an hour to fix my machine. No problem there.

If I buy a machine from the company next door, the manufacterer will charge me $200.00 per hour to work on the same machine? Unless I give them $5000.00 so that they will only charge me $125.00 per hour!!!

It is not like they don't know how to work on it. They made their commission off of the machine when it was originally sold. What difference does it make if it is at this factory or that factory when it needs to be serviced?

They are only making a bad name for themselves in the market to the small shops that are just starting to get going. If the OEM of the machine treats them like crap then when the shop grows they are not going to go with the same OEM to buy new equipment.

Why not take that baby company and grow with them and start a good relation with them. Sure there is a chance that they will never buy new, but once you start buying feeders and getting trained (even self taught) it is very expensive to change platforms and start going with a different machine.

I ask again, is there another industry out there that has the OEMs of the equipment treating their used products with such hatred?

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#22248

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 2 November, 2002

Frank-

Your point about the OEM's trying to help a small company with thoughts of bigger and better things in the future is a valid point. I've had that same argument with the OEM's for years but for different reasons.

You're still missing the point about service if you buy a machine on the used market. The OEM will simply not support you if you don't register the machine with them. The different service prices per hour don't exist as you mentioned. Simply put, pay the fee and get support, don't and you get nothing from them.

You are correct with regards to their sales commission...they did make their money on the first sale. But that miniscule registration fee allows you to get in their system and who wouldn't want 24 hour technical support, product upgrades, troubleshooting tips and discounted spare parts terms and pricing? These things cost money for the OEM and they are passing along some of the costs to new customers that didn't pay the registration fee like the original owner did. Remember, the OEM's relationship was with the first owner...not you.

Regarding other industries that charge for these types of services I would point you to the Test Equipment OEM's. With registration fees in the $25,000-$50,000 category, the assembly OEM's are letting you off quite light. I also believe the semi-conductor OEM's charge these same type of fees.

I also compare these fees to what our own government charges in sales taxes. Is it right that if a machine is bought and sold 5 different times over its life that sales tax must be paid 5 different times?

What about all of the warranties you can get in the world that are not transferable to another party? I believe the auto industry participates in this. Is that fair?

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#22249

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 2 November, 2002

The small shop starting with a used machine and grow larger was not the target market of the OEM, I used to work for. This may sound harsh, but the cost of selling and servicing the equipment to a small shop is comparable much higher than to the Motorola�s, who buy machines in batches of 10 and 20�s. Now that these times are gone and a few thousand employees cut off on both sides, the OEM realize that the used machine market is all they get at this time. However, the machines were never designed for the small shops to begin with, only the price tags of the used machines make them very attractive for the growing or starting business. Maybe that is where the �hatred� is coming from The license fee may scare off customer, who want to cut cost wherever they can. If they badmouth the OEM because of that, who cares. If you try to use the machine without professional training, you will have even more reasons to complain and start making real noise. Indeed the machines became that sophisticated (complicated) that it requires a different class of operators to keep these machines running well. Fastek and myself know the market very well. Sure, we would like you to sell the machine, but the money you save instead of buying from the OEM, should be at least partial invested. For example, you could hire an operator, who is very well familiar with the equipment you intend to buy. If you can�t find an operator in your area and select the license fee, OEM training option, you may get punished with an inflated fee to get your machine more re-furbished than required. After that you will be treated as a regular customer with the same service fees as everyone else.

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Nick

#22379

Used Equipment Support (Registration?) | 12 November, 2002

Gentlemen...

I hear lots of whining about registration and service fees for third party owners and lots of comparisons of "cars" Well Automations machines are not cars.. Machines differ like apples to grapes. As it was said earlier Business is Business and WE ALL want to make money. Its absolutely fair that a company that buys directly from the OEM should have a lower rate on parts and service. Companies that buy on the third party market are buying it much cheaper and should pay for the experience, knowledge and skill of the people who work for the OEM. How do you think they get paid? If you think All that "commission" that the Sales people get comes back to the service organization I have a nice Bridge to sell you.I'm not saying its a perfect system. Their are alot of holes in it But as a Wiseman once said... "You get what you pay for!!!"

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