Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


BS

Earl Moon

#3208

BS | 22 August, 2000

No advertising! Yes sirs!

I have placed my hat, head, body, and soul into what Dave and Jax have finally said, plus the fact this forum is totally turned commercial and we pundants have to obey the no advertising rule while the forum management seeks advertising type crap from those willing to post papers or presentations.

Admitedly, some are very good - they still go against the grain that setup this fourm. The respondents to the commercialism that has become so much a part of the fabric, are giving it away - free.

Dave and Jax have hit the nail on the head of a dull hammer I have proposed for sometime. How long will this continue? I guess 'til the cows come home because that's what will be left if they leave - plus a few more.

It doesn't end. It takes five minutes for us out in yaya land without DSL or cable modem just to log on and search forums. The email is impossible and the search archives is ridiculous.

The magazine is owned by advertisers and Dave. I do like Dave's reviews however.

I quit this thing some time back. I target shoot a few reasonable and vital questions off line. Even so, I have to go through Wolfgang and others just to reach people needing answers as it takes too long to go through the SMTnet mail crap and I wouldn't do it on the fourm anyway.

As much as I disagree with the forum's BS, I applaud some of the participants. I do not applaud the advertised stuff like Willis on this site. I can't imagine how he posed for that picture. Please don't insult us with more of this crap.

Earl Moon, Proof Of Design

PS for Dave, thanks for the input to ADC. However, I do disagree with your assessment of Bismaliemide Triazine, becuase of its Tg as part of the solution to xy axis TCE. It ain't what's going on. The TCE is the issue. This issue could have been resolved had the site been more astute.

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Sun

#3209

Re: BS | 23 August, 2000

Earl,

There are many of us that are very greatful for the FREE service SMTnet.com provides. How do you expect them to pay overhead without advertisers? Do you want to pay? They continue to provide a good service and we should remember that it is for FREE! So, unless you have something vital to say shut up about the advertising.

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Earl Moon

#3210

Re: BS | 23 August, 2000

Well Sun, This is Moon and you are out of phase with reality. I have nothing against advertising as long as it does not prohibit free technical intercourse as it did me and the investment I made several years ago.

Free my ass. I mean, let them make their money but not the way it's being done on the backs of forum contributors. I've always given them that they must make money, but not so blatently and without sharing. They've gone too far with the thing in the wrong direction and I know how much that means to someone like you who contributes so much to the forum.

And you're telling me to shut up when you've never before spoken. What sage advice or questions do you pose. Would it be more incredibly important tombstoning or solder ball issues because you're too lazy to search the archives? Maybe you cannot because they're not easily entered or because it takes 5 minutes just to get to the forum because of all the bannered advertising as well as that inviting "technical" papers to get MORE free advertising.

Beside, I contribute through the email channel with those asking for REAL help. It ain't easy, but I do it gladly.

Boogie,

MoonMan

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Sun

#3211

Re: BS | 23 August, 2000

Thanks for your remarks- they were as expected from someone who hates the world so much. First, let me say that you are the one out of phase with reality. I have personally been in contact with the SMTnet staff and they are more then willing to listen. I'm not sure of the details of your situation, but I do know that free technical intercourse is exactly what this forum provides.

Second, on the backs of the forum contributors...well, I do see your point here, but isn't that how all successful internet sites work? They provide a good service (which SMTnet does)which drives traffic which in turn drives advertising. What is so hard to understand about that? Have you ever watched a Super Bowl?

Third, Maybe if we worked with these guys to get some sort of frequent flier miles type thing going they would...?

Lastly, I must say that you are right. I haven't contributed to the forum very often, but I have learned a lot from it and REALLY appreciate it. So, now I AM contributing to the forum and want SMTnet to know that there are hundreds (thousands?) of people who appreciate this site even though once in a while the moon is out of phase.

May the Sun shine on you

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Earl Moon

#3212

Re: BS | 23 August, 2000

Hell old Sun,

You've been working too long in my mail room. You can neither see or provide light of any type. That's my objective overview, not my opinion, and from your postings, I'm not wrong.

I am sad you started this diatribe, but happy for helping management provide the forum for it. Keep up the work, whatever it is you do, and may moonshine never be brighter while someone straightens out this forum's mess to which you contribute so much.

MoonMan

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Earl Moon

#3213

Re: BS | 23 August, 2000

Hell old Sun,

You've been working too long in my mail room. You can neither see or provide light of any type. That's my objective overview, not my opinion, and from your postings, I'm not wrong.

I am sad you started this diatribe, but happy for helping management provide the forum for it. Keep up the work, whatever it is you do, and may moonshine never be brighter while someone straightens out this forum's mess to which you contribute so much.

MoonMan

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JAX

#3214

Re: BS | 23 August, 2000

Before the two of you get out of hand let me shed some light on the matter: Here's a little somthing to think about!!

"If the Sun at its rising is like a crescent and wears a crown like the Moon: the king wll capture his enemy's land; evil will leave the land, and (the land) will experience good . . . "

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong!!!

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Earl Moon

#3215

Re: BS | 24 August, 2000

I don't entertain the forum like JAXSUN. I never have played games but for some humorous insights. I, when participating, never complained until management provided only more incentive to advertisers than forum members.

That said, the following is a list of questions every engineer participating on the forum should be asking instead of the obvious supposedly found in the "archives."

1) What are the major issues with solderability especially with "modern" solder termination coatings (cause and effect, process management, FMEA, or whatever)as silver, gold, HASL, tin, platings, etc.

2) What are issues presented by current land pattern sizes, layouts, TCE matching, physical chip properties, etc.

3) What effects are ensured by poor process management without DFM/CE besides the redundant rhetoric expounding question concerning tombstoning and solder ball type stuff.

4) What multilayer PCB requirements must be met to ensure acceptable dimensional stability, laminate integrity, and electrical performance.

5) What issues really are involved in BGA type devices and their corner cracking issues - mostly concerning ceramic types.

6) Why are CCGA type device solder joints more readily acceptable initially and on a long term reliability basis.

7) Why does Dr. Lee's SMQ92 product so much better than the competitions paste - I like especially the J paste with such excellent release characteristics.

8) Why are Tg and TCE characteristics not mutually codependent - for the most part.

9) How is it possible to make BGA's into column grid arrays and why should it be done.

10) Why is it left up to independent companies to determine the most effective pad sizes for BGA's (7095 not yet available) and why is smaller better for BGA's and chip device type components.

11) Why doesn't someone place the advertising stuff in a separate envelope so you forum participants can participate more effectively.

12) Why does all the attention go to advertisers instead of participants who, but a hand full, have departed out of disgust.

13) Why would someone like Earl Moon, and many many others, depart this forum but for not receiving input about their site "hits" (it's a secret known only to management?) so they can share in the site's profitability?

14) Why are there wise asses like JAXSUN participating with only their opinions?

15) There are tons of new questions that should be of concern to all forum members, especially engineers and managers, instead of on-line forums whose questions come only from those interested in solder balling.

16) I repeat, it's easy to get advertisers at whatever price, but you can't make them stay without attracting highly qualified forum members who know what's really going on on the ground floor and in the advanced arenas. 90% of the current participants have real needs that could easily be found in the "archives" but there is no direction to that easily found. IPC has a slick system. How slick? It's just there without blatant banners hung up everywhere hanging up everything.

17) What's the point continuing with over a hundred issues, new and old, so important they are beyond the scope of most here unless the forum's management gets on the ball

Earl Moon

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JAX

#3216

Re: BS | 24 August, 2000

Moony, Do you plan on re-joining the forum...., or are you still waiting for management to give you a cut of the profits. It seems to me you would rather pity yourself and trash others than stand up and share what you know. After all, this is just a way to share information on a broad scale. If you want recognition, you have it. If you want money, go somewhere else. By the way, just because you don't realize the quote was talking about the forum participants being able to change the forum for the better with a few insights from yourself ( JUST A FEW ), that's not my problem. Have fun in your eternal quest for retribution!

JAX

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Earl Moon

#3217

Re: BS | 24 August, 2000

You are absurd. If you could answer even one of the questions I posed, I would give you a thimble of respect. I have nothing personal or monetary to gain.

I have written more articles and column installments than you have read. I simply want to share in mine and the forum's hard work by knowing who wants what according to what I post. Your opinions count for nothing. Why not write an article or expose yourself as the phony you are.

I have no interest in joining a forum in which I gave three years of my time only to be asked to join without benefit. You, on the other hand, only wish to make negative comments about me or offer subjective opinions based, obviously, on nothing.

I am for a forum, no matter to whom it belongs. allowing serious issues to be presented and rewarded. This forum, as you, in its current state, offers nothing but dull diatribe.

Earl Moon, End Of Discussion thankfully for all

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#3218

Re: BS | 25 August, 2000

Welcome back Moon Man. Your title is an apt description of the occurrence of your return. I always enjoy your bombastic baccalaureate, and welcome your feedback and observations. It is very helpful to hear from someone who has reached the point of frustration with what we are trying to do here to overcome any sense of decorum and vent. I often feel the same way and, as those here can attest, give rise to those feelings. However in relating to other SMTneters, we do ask, if not insist that personal vitriol and invective be kept in the room where it belongs, the little room outside with the crescent moon on the door. Sorry, but in keeping with a sense of play and fun I am taking what may be inappropriate license, there by perhaps disregarding my own admonition. If my lightness is taken that way, I apologize. And it in no way ignores the seriousness with which wetake your message. If I may, I�d like to take your observations, list them and give my best shot at a response and see if we can't move forward with your enthusiastic prodding. If I forget or misrepresent anything, please provide any appropriate correction. 1. Earl said: "No advertising! Yes sirs!

I have placed my hat, head, body, and soul into what Dave and Jax have finally said, plus the fact this forum is totally turned commercial and we pundants have to obey the no advertising rule while the forum management seeks advertising type crap from those willing to post papers or presentations.

Admitedly, some are very good - they still go against the grain that setup this fourm. The respondents to the commercialism that has become so much a part of the fabric, are giving it away - free.

Dave and Jax have hit the nail on the head of a dull hammer I have proposed for sometime. How long will this continue? I guess 'til the cows come home because that's what will be left if they leave - plus a few more. SMTnet response: As the founding "grain" with the idea for SMTnet and its forum perhaps I can say a little as to why we started this site. As the electronics industry has such a short product life cycle, we thought that a way for problem solvers to connect to information across the new Internet would be well received. I think our instinct has been correct. With over 1 million hits, 250,000 page views and 40,000 unique visits from 16,000 unique visitors 25% of whom are from outside the US, per month, we are reaching a good audience of problem solvers in the electronics manufacturing industry. Such as yourself. Do we have a way to go? You bet, and we are well aware and working everyday to provide better service. To that end we are scheduled to completely redo the backend software that operates the site before yearend. This will not materially change the site itself, but will make it easier to maintain and . expand and will allow us to better personalize the site to fit a variety of preferences and interests.

Advertising pays our bills! Well almost. Actually since we are making our next level of investment, not even close. It's as simple as that. But, to my mind it does something more. It delivers important information regarding new products and services to you who are trying to solve the industry problems. Perhaps as much as any forum answer. In addition, the Sponsors, who have supported us, have been in turn supporting you by helping us deliver this site for your free use. We don't even require registration to use the forum, per your insistance. They are believers in this new medium and are like Public Radio supporters, they give so that others may benefit. In return, we acknowledge their support . If we disagree on that, well we will have to respectfully disagree. But perhaps in our new site we can add an advertising free version for a nominal subscription fee. Brian is already looking at putting that feature into the new software. So thanks for the suggestion. As to the forum being used by contributors to directly promote their products: it has been our impression that doing so is out of line with our users� preferences. Nevertheless, as some participants can attest, they have been contacted as a result of their postings and some of the contacts have lead to significant new business. I believe that you have even mentioned as much yourself 2. Earl said: It doesn't end. It takes five minutes for us out in yaya land without DSL or cable modem just to log on and search forums. The email is impossible and the search archives is ridiculous SMTnet response: The new site will accelerate loading times dramatically. Loading time has been halved in the past months, and we are looking at our loading standards for the future to improve the experience. We have strict file sizes on all images and do our current best to keep things moving. I personally am on a dial up and experience the same loading problems. Bad, but not terrible. There will be a much improved email program as well. What we have is indeed "impossible." Please stand-by. The search has been improved due to prior requests, perhaps 2 months ago, and is dramatically better in its function. The search tips are a good help. Yes, there is a bunch of less-than-edifying threads in the database and the suggestion of FAQ�s that organize some questions is a good one. Any suggestion of how to pay for that service? 3. Earl said: The magazine is owned by advertisers and Dave. I do like Dave's reviews however SMTnet response: We like Dave's reviews also. The magazine is embryonic and is scheduled to undergo drastic restructuring with the new site redo. Personalization will be its key feature. Just what you wish. 4. Earl said: [Comments not to be repeated[ SMTnet response: I will not repeat his comments here as they contained personal invective. But the ON BOARD Forum was to act as a stimulant to more questions from further afield and perhaps more technical. This in response to requests for such content. Again, it is only in its first stages and will become better with time. Well, I have carried on at length and hope to have added more light then darkness. Thanks Earl for your continued encouragement and helping us not lose sight of in whose service we serve.

Peter, SMTnet

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Earl Moon

#3219

Re: BS | 25 August, 2000

Who are you? Or are you the forth person in the past year who contacted me by email to whom I responded in kind some minutes ago?

I'm not back until this mess gets at least a little organized, with some technical substance beyond that which I have so bombastically commented. I'm not pissed, and I'm not berating anyone with brains. Everyone on the currently changing forum has a need to know. It's the what I question as it ain't getting any more technical. I'm just trying to get you guys off the dime, or penny in this case. I tried for over three years the other way inside with a positive, serious, but jovial attitude (that's who I am). Now I'm outside and will continue this way, with whatever tone or attitude it takes. The forum is too important to be wasted as it is.

MoonMan

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JAX

#3220

Re: BS | 28 August, 2000

MoonMan, I'll take a crack at the list. Feel free to answer the ones I don't! 1. Solderability is a parameter which indicates how well a component can be soldered. As far as Solder Termination Coatings go, here are some up�s and down�s of a few.

Hassle: A solder coating over all exposed pads and surfaces. Due to the application process, the surface topography is left with excess solder at one point on the pad, inconsistently. This causes variations in solder paste applications and component skew becomes a concern below 20mil pitch and BGA devices.

OSP: Does not provide long term protection to unsoldered bare copper areas. It is Easier to rework than metallic finishes but more fragile to the assembly process. Again, OSP�s have a shorter shelf life.

Immersion Gold: A displacement reaction utilizing a potassium gold cyanide reducing agent, depositing 4-7 micro-inches of gold on coppernickel surfaces. Ideal for high density Surface mount devices due to surface coplanarity and long shelf life.

Electrolytic Gold: Process preformed prior to etching using electrical connections for plating. It is thicker than the immersion gold and may not encapsulate the edges of the pads due the order of process( prior to etching )

2. Land pattern Sizes: SMT: An obvious issue is solder volume. The land pattern size must be large enough to provide sufficient solder volume while not exceeding limits placed on mixed technology boards. ( unless you use step stencils: another topic all together ; also related to board layout ) Distance between pads should be maximized to eliminate bridging and/or solder starvation caused by solder paste slumping. Trough Hole: When considering a minimum pad size the design must consider the finished hole size, manufacturing tolerance, and annular ring( copper measured from edge of hole to outside diameter of the pad. ) Minimum pad size will reduce the solder volume required to form top and bottom fillets. Layout requires a clearance area without unmasked via's around component for solder paste overprint. If unmasked via's are too close solder will be shared between the two and bridging can occur. Also legend ink should be considered. It could impact the flow of solder causing separation forming SOLDER BALLS.

3. Effects are limitless ; that�s why there is a forum to ask questions!

4. Sorry MoonMan ; PCB design is not my specialty, maybe you will enlighten us all.

5. BGA Issues( corner cracking ) : TCE mismatch.

6. CCGA: Ceramic LGA's ( see above ) and some thermally enhanced Ball Grid Array (BGA) components expand at a much different rate than the materials of which printing wiring boards are made. This TCE mismatch causes shear stresses on the solder joints during temperature cycling. Cracks form and propagate in the solder joints until the joint is entirely broken, resulting in electrical failure. The columns of CCGA�s are more ductile allowing for stress relief.

7. SMQ92 Solder Paste: I have no idea, Share the knowledge MoonMan.

8. Tg and TCE codependants: Once again I do not know.

9. BGA to CGA: see 5 and 6.

10-17. Not real questions.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong! I am sure you will let me know if I am!!!

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Earl Moon

#3221

Re: BS | 28 August, 2000

1/4 thimble!

Obviously, you read none of may articles. HASL has more than a simple topographical problem, and so on. You also would know that TCE, while being an important issue, can be overcome as a problem with optimized pad designs. You would know that CCGA solder joints are more reliable because the columns are more flexible and they exhibit all the attributes associated with quality and reliability. This is hopeless.

As far as enlightening others, I do that. As far as you are concerned, based on your answers, it is not possible.

I just don't have the will to go on with this, but will say that if you had participated in the latest online forum with Dr. Lee (I can't because I'm not registered), you would have better understood his paste formulation and other facts concerning its current superiority.

Earl Moon

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hmmmmmmm.

#3222

Re: BS | 1 September, 2000

Earl; try ineedtobeneeded.com and leave the politics at the office. Enjoy your day.

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Hahahahaha

#3223

Re: BS | 1 September, 2000

Very Funny! And Appropriate! Earl you deserve it; stop being such a pompous a..

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Earl Moon

#3224

Re: BS | 2 September, 2000

More eloquence and cowardice. In the words of Dave F "what a maroon!" Another noname without the intelligence or conviction to offer a good response or even a name. And the forum continues its self degradation.

Pompous MoonAssMan

Boogie

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