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Agilis Feeders

I just read a blurb about the new feeder in a previous threa... - Apr 26, 2002 by Dilbert  

#19697

Agilis Feeders | 26 April, 2002

I just read a blurb about the new feeder in a previous thread and was just wondering if these are the greatest things next to sliced bread like they claim it to be. From what I can see in the magazine add it looks like the cover tape is pealed and rolled at a 90 deg angle to expose the part, and then pulled foward by something not shown. Is it award worthy or another gimic?

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#19698

Agilis Feeders | 26 April, 2002

I am not real sure whether they are cool or not.I know a couple of the tech guys there pretty well, and they swear its the next best thing to buttered popcorn. One thing I do know for a fact: They will not give you a magazine to try them out.

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#19701

Agilis Feeders | 26 April, 2002

Dunno, but Ian doesn't seem excited. Look here http://www.smtnet.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=1&Message_ID=19691

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#19702

Agilis Feeders | 26 April, 2002

Ian was quite right, mentioning the Nitto patent. It is Pat# 4,820,369 from April 1989. The idea is great, but there are quite some hick-ups in practise.

P.S. The reasons for the difficulties with the �cover tape curl� are easily explained. Try to hold down a piece of paper on three edges and lift up the fourth edge by 90 degree. Well, it does not work. The paper is flat and does not have the camber in the third dimension. If you try to force it, it will tear. Same effect with the cover tape curl. The forces on the seams are uncontrollable. The blade which is required to get underneath the cover tape can easily poke into the tape pocket, in particular at the end of the tape, where the tape has a strong memory from the reel. Due to the forces on the cover tape, the peeler creates more vibration then pulling the tape off backwards, increasing the risk of vibrating the component out of pick position during transport. By forcing the tape to one side, the pick position is dependent on the outer dimensions of the tape rather than the position of the sprocket holes. These deviations make the method unsuitable for picking small components. The feeder does not have a shutter or cover lid, covering the component during transport. Again, Ian was well informed and experienced. Give him a product to test before market launch.

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Johan Bergstrom

#19704

Agilis Feeders | 28 April, 2002

I don�t believe I am reading this! Stefan, as a colleague feeder designer I have all respects for your knowledge, but you theorize without having tested this. The design team and I have been working with this technology for several years now. Sure, the geometries in the new Agilis feeder have not come easy but one of the things that worked from scratch were the tapes with the really small components. In reality the cover tape materials are much more flexible than you imagine.

It works! Boards are built using this system right now! (And forget that �ten seconds� thing the marketing people are telling you about. I slide the tape into the feeder in just under five! :-)

Johan Bergstrom Development MYDATA

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#19719

Agilis Feeders | 29 April, 2002

Shall we designers ignore what component vendors recommend how to peel off the cover tape? See Performance Note: http://www.kemet.com/kemet/web/homepage/kechome.nsf/vapubfilesname/F3102GTaCerPkg.pdf/$file/F3102GTaCerPkg.pdf

P.S. Also, note the decent accurate dimension of F, the position of the center line in relation to the sprocket holes. W, or the tape width can vary from 8.3 mm to 7.9 mm.

Design engineers have to follow some guidelines, despite their experience in the field. I was working on the same design for many years and for final test I had tapes made 7.9 and 8.3 mm wide. With adjustments to the blade and peeler, I got it working as well, but the center of the component was off by +/- 0.2 mm and would have required additional adjustments. Sure, most of the tapes are between 8 and 8.1mm wide and the glue seams are in straight lines, but it did not satisfy myself that it worked most of the times. I did not get rich or rewarded, but I sleep well. I have no bad feelings, if someone else gets it working . Next time we meet, I take you out for beer. It will be cheap evening for me, or can Swedes take more than one German beer?

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#19724

Agilis Feeders | 29 April, 2002

With all due respect, it is my experience that "some" design engineers should spend at least some time in a production type enviroment. It gives a real sense of how things actually act when put into daily action. I realize that the specs manufacturers give should be acurate, but as we all know that is not always the case. I am sorry, and please try not to take offense to this but I would like to strangle design engineers who tell me that "it is not their fault", because they are following the manufacturers specs. When a product is developed it should be developed from real world DIVERSE hard data.Not developed to what somebody says that probably has never been in a production enviroment in their life. I guess what I am trying to say here is: You should know what it takes to make widgets, before you go designing widget makers.

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magirosa

#19728

Agilis Feeders | 29 April, 2002

The Agilis feeders perform as advertised after having them in use for several months. They significantly reduce the time it takes to load and unload feeders and don't require maintenance and calibration (unlike traditional feeders and the older Mydata magazines) as they have no moving parts.

The only issue to date is they are 8mm only and there is no release date set for the wider tape sizes.

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John Raposa

#19730

Agilis Feeders | 29 April, 2002

It is very disturbing to me that people use screen names on this forum. Could any of you step up to the plate with your true identity? Joe Raposa

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#19732

Agilis Feeders | 29 April, 2002

Sorry, I wish to remain anonymous so that I am able to ask questions and present responses freely without having individuals I may work with and those that may know me at other companies begin to respond to me directly. I have no problem with corrisponding via email through this site, I just want to keep it here, at this website. I'm sure many others pose fake names, I just picked one that is obvious.

I can see now why doing this may cause problems, but I try and ask questions that may solve my problem or give me insight as to how something works. I've seen threads where individuals respond with, "Company X product is bad", which is not justified and was not the intent of this thread.

The feeder won an award so it must have demonstrated advances over older designs by MyData and its competitors, I just unfortunately have not had the chance to play with it.

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Col

#19743

Agilis Feeders | 1 May, 2002

Having been a user of the agillis feeder they are excellent and perform as the should do 1 slight complaint would be the length of coverlay needs to be long if its too short it can cause issues with fouling in the machine.

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Roger

#19890

Agilis Feeders | 13 May, 2002

Is there any difference in performance when running paper tape or plastic?

What's the smallest passive component that you have fed in the feeder?

How does pressure sensitive adhesive (PSA) tape perform in the feeder? PSA has a tendency to transfer to any metallic surface it contacts and can gum things up over time.

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#19900

Agilis Feeders | 13 May, 2002

Why is it disturbing to you ?This fascinates me. My true identity is an SMT process technician with over 11 years of experience in this industry.That should be sufficient for this forum. Why on earth would you need to know what my true name is ?

I am sorry that I disturb you....Wait a minute, no I'm not.

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Johan Bergstrom

#19994

Agilis Feeders | 21 May, 2002

Many MYDATA customers might not be aware that some tapes are of PSA-type. They don't have to. In the early work with Agilis this was also an open issue for the design team, so several tests were made which showed that PSA would not be a problem. Recently we made renewed tests with helpful assistance from 3M who provided us with larger volumes of the different available PSA combinations (base and cover tape). Agilis still have no problems with PSA even at over 10,000 fed components on each feeder.

As for the other two questions, I know you want answers from real users, but from my view: No, there is no difference in performance between paper tape and plastic. We successfully feed 0201:s with Agilis. ( lots of them :-)

Johan Bergstrom Development MYDATA

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#19999

Agilis Feeders | 21 May, 2002

With regards to feeders handling 0201's, how does this feeder (as well as other manufacturers feeders) keep the pick position accurate? The feeders I've used have some play between the tape and the sprocket, enough so that if I tug at the cover tape the pocket appears to move slightly. It looks like most feeders out there pull the cover tape back with a belt driven motor and they rely on the belt to slip when the cover tape has been pulled back all the way.

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Johan Bergstrom

#20055

Agilis Feeders | 24 May, 2002

Yes, traditionally feeders are using two pulling mechanisms; one for the base tape and one for the cover tape. Agilis only need one. Therefore there is no precision conflict regarding possible play between the sprocket and the tape.

Johan Bergstrom Development MYDATA

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#20059

Agilis Feeders | 24 May, 2002

Again, I would like to refer to the tape dimensions and their deviations. In an 8 mm tape the distance from the sprocket holes to the tape pocket is 3.5 mm +/- 0.05 mm. This tolerance is easy to achieve, because in the manufacturing process of the tape, the holes and the pockets are punched out together with a die. All other tape dimensions vary up to +/- 0.2 mm. Most of the earlier designed feeders exhibit the problems of too much play of the sprocket pins in the perforation holes and may not be suitable for 0201 or even 0402 pick up. I am referring to an article from FUJI in a recent SMT magazine regarding the pick rate of 0201 components. Besides improvements of more accurate, cone shaped nozzles, the geometry of the sprocket wheel was mentioned as a key issue. Feeders ejecting the tape in front for cut off, don�t get enough wrap around the wheel to keep the tape in position. If there are only a few pins of the wheel in action, it is even more difficult to position the tape in reference to its perforation holes. Keep in mind that most of the turret head machines have to rely on the absolute accuracy of the feeder, whereby other machines can live with a good repeatable performance, once they �find� the first component. If you can put a feeder with 0201 components from any manufacturer on a machine and can pick without tweaking on the pick position, I will draw my hat.

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Roger

#20120

Agilis Feeders | 29 May, 2002

With all due respect I would like to see feedback from Agilis users.

The Yugo was a very reliable car according to the Yugo salesman. Then the muffler fell off on the way home from the dealer.

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Roger

#20151

Agilis Feeders | 30 May, 2002

What's your real name?

Is Joe or John?

Regards,

Sponge Bob

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Used PCB Equipment - ECM

ii-feed SMD Intelligent Feeder