Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


QP-132E // FCM 2

Hello, Can someone help me, I want to setup a high speed ... - Apr 14, 2002 by dibou  

... - Apr 21, 2002 by CJN  

What is your email Jeff? ... - May 11, 2002 by Sully  

dibou

#19505

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 14 April, 2002

Hello,

Can someone help me, I want to setup a high speed SMT line. i have only 3 different products, and i have to change only once a week. I want to place 0402 and maybe later 0201. I think that a FCM 2 or a QP-132E are good machines for that?

can someone tell me the differens between the two machines? I want also help from the users of these machines?

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Bob

#19509

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 15 April, 2002

Hi, I have loads of experience with QP132's. You can change over product quite easily depending on a few things: - � The board sizes should be the same otherwise pallet adjustment can take an hour or so. � If you can fit all the feeders on one set-up then no time is wasted, it is easy to have extra tables loaded if you can warrant the extra cost. � Generally nozzle changes are easy but are manual. � If the board is over a certain size then you sometimes loose speed from double indexes, this can be minimized with a little experience.

As far as speed I have run product on QP1's and achieved 102,000 placements per hour. Typically you will get anywhere between 80 and 100K placements per hour.

I am a great advocate of Fuji machines and the QP132 certainly proved to be a good machine.

There are some issues to look out for if going for a second hand one, let me know if you need more info.

The QP132 was designed to place small chips and loves 0402's in order to place 0201 you will need a special camera, I looked into retrofitting some of the ones I was looking after, and we would have chosen to only retrofit a few heads due to the cost. If you are purchasing new then I'm sure this could be negotiated in the price. Since I worked on them (10 months ago) it may be that all machines are fitted with the new camera systems.

Not too sure about the FCM so I will not share any bad points I have heard about them as it would be second hand and not from personal experiance. But QP132's I do know and I would fully recommend them.

Let me know if you require any further info.

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dibou

#19522

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 16 April, 2002

can you tell me about the bad things you heard about the FCM? it is verry important to us?

thank u.

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dibou

#19523

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 16 April, 2002

what offline software did you use and was it good?

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#19524

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 16 April, 2002

You mean the offline software for the QP? We use the F4G only. Not even the Fuji Cam.

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#19525

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 16 April, 2002

I never use any FCM before. Therefore, I can't tell. I just heard from some manufactures. I can't tell at the public web site. But for the resale value, Fuji is the best. You better looking for the used one instead of the brand new one. It will save you lots of money.

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Bob

#19607

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 20 April, 2002

I heard from a second hand source that the heads required calibrating reqularly and to do that they needed to be sent to the manufacturers.

I also heard that they were fairly unstable and broke down alot.

All these were not from first hand experiance.

For programming QP1's I used both Fujicam and F4G, I would personally go for FujiCam given the choice as it is much faster to optimise and I found the GUI much more user friendly.

Bob...

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#19611

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 20 April, 2002

I am sure the QP-132 is a more stable platform. It is a Fuki after all. My big question is why not X2 CP-6 machines. I mean you can tell by resale value of the FCM Vs the QP-132 that the QP-132 is a rock solid machine but, for such cheap money two CP-6 machines with feeders could be had. I have not seen a QP-132 for sale in the past 8 weeks or so. Can any one update me on what they are selling for?

All the best

Christopher

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CJN

#19613

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 21 April, 2002

Bob

#19622

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 22 April, 2002

The main reason I would choose a QP over 2 x CP6 is speed.

Depending on optimisation you can get between 25 - 28 KCPH from each CP6 but with the QP1 you are looking at 75 - 100 KCPH, for much less line length. The QP1 is approx 1 x 1/3 the length on 1 CP6.

Bob...

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Jeff Price

#19740

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 30 April, 2002

If your intested in a QP-132 contact your local Fuji rep. You may also want to look at 2 CP-733's they will provide a much smaller footprint then a QP-132 and get clsoe to the throughput. If you need help conecting up with your local rep email me and I can get you the contact information.

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#19747

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 1 May, 2002

We can't affort the new QP132. It costs more than a million bucks each plus power feeders. We can only buy from the used markets. CP7's X-Y Table is moving too fast. They need special solder paste. Very expensive solder paste to hold the components. Also, the drop rate is very very high.

Sai

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JAX

#19750

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 2 May, 2002

Sai, I would like to know what you base the "high drop rate" and need for special paste on. JAX

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Paul Gerits

#19764

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 3 May, 2002

Dear Sir,

I do not want to mix in this "subjective" discussion but as an employee of Assembl�on (buider of FCM II, FCM multiflex 50, 75, 100) I can provide you with MTTR, MTBF, placement data (0201), software, and other (also customer) data on our equipment. If you are interested and want objective data on machine comparising you can contact me via following e-mail address paul.gerits@philips.com.. A succes story, which the FCM is because of it's unique design, functinality, flexibilty, placement quality and capabilities can not be copied.

Regards,

Paul Gerits

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#19767

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 3 May, 2002

I agree with Sai regarding re-sale. It's night and day with Fuji vs. Philips. You can't imagine how cheap FCM-2's are going for these days. I've got a 2000 model with 200 hours on it (basically a new machine) and over 100 feeders available for very little money. I'll quote it privately if anyone is interested.

Rick- Fastek fastek@attbi.com

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#19772

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 4 May, 2002

I really don't think so. Most of the time copy is much better than the original. For the durabilities, Philips can't compare with the Fuji, Resale vaule, productivities. Fuji is the best. Philips has many original; CD, SACD, Plasma Display. But the Japanese copy that & even make it better.

Sai

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#19773

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 4 May, 2002

Special solder paste means you can't use the cheap one in low end procusts. You have to such as Multicore on the CP7.

Sai

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ianchan

#19791

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 6 May, 2002

Hi mate,

no offense intended to anyone, just wanna say that "copies" ought to be re-designed with more advanced improvements against the older models.

else what the heck is that "copy-designer" team doing with all that R&D time/funding?

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Sully

#19880

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 11 May, 2002

What is your email Jeff?

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#19912

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 14 May, 2002

Bob,

Is there anyway you can get me some QP 132��s parts. I need it urgently.

Sai

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Bob

#19996

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 21 May, 2002

I am, unfortunatly, not working with Fuji machines at the moment.

Bob...

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tmv

#20058

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 24 May, 2002

Lot's of good discussion in this string...but I think we've missed a few points. First off...turret machines are more than capable of handling the smaller component sizes (in fact, they are the best)...Machines like the SANYO TCM-3000 or Universal 4796 or 4797 HSP's use Direct Drive head technology as well as an interactive Z-axis height control. These attributes provide X&Y&Z pick-up correct that is critical for 0402's and 0201's....the Z control at the placement location is uses a closed loop intelligence that provides a very controlled placement depth in the solder paste. Your concern about a "moving table" is unwarranted...HSP's and even some Pana machines have been the dominent machine of choice for these applications in Japan for years...

Also...if you haven't dealt with the process side of things yet...you must use at least a type-4 solder paste for these tiny components....Cheaper pastes jsut wont due to the the process intensive characteristics of the 0402 and especially the 0201's...remember..you aren't putting much material on the board, so the sphere size ratio is more critical.

As far as throughput and footprint, there are options...the HPS's for instance have configurations that are as small as 2.4m long, with a spec'd speed of 48K cph.

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#20062

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 24 May, 2002

Good points regarding Sanyo. I believe they were the first to introduce the "Direct Drive" concept. It's quite impressive. Panasonic probably ripped them off when designed their MSR's. It's interesting to note that an FCM-2 placing 96,000 comp. per hour takes up all of 10 feet of floor space and costs approx. $1 million. You'll need (3) TCM-3000 machines and 50 feet of floor space to match the FCM-2. Yes, you'll have more flexibility with the Sanyo line and alot more feeder inputs but if you're simply pounding out cell phones all day, the FCM-2 is a good way to go.

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Ozzy

#20167

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 31 May, 2002

Does Fuji even make the QP-132 anymore? I have not seen it at Apex for the past 2-3 years. This "inflexible" dinosaur was a commercial disaster for Fuji. Philips/Assembleon has sold countless more FCM than Fuji QP-132. The problem with both machines is lack of flexibility. When you change board sizes it will cost much $$$ in time and tooling. EMS providers just cannot afford to give up flexibility for speed. Just ask any EMS that installed these machines for high volume cell phone manufacturing. This business was supposed to last forever. NOT! Now they are trying to switch these machines over to larger boards and are standing around scratching their heads with wrenches in their hands.

The best placement equipment for combining speed, accuracy and flexibilty comes from Siemens.

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tmv

#20699

QP-132E // FCM 2 | 15 July, 2002

Agreed that the FCM has been the choice in the past...but have you seen the 4797S HSP (TCM X100)? Usually (2) 4797S's can replace (1) FCM for about the same purchase price, and only a slighly larger footprint (consider the cost of ownership as well....the FCM will cost you considerably more in the long run).

This is a nice consideration if your not sure what you'll be assembling in the future. This alternate solution is much more flexible and "re-deployable".

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