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Universal instruments registration "UIC IS EXAMPLE ONLY"

Just to let all the folks no. If you register (and pay the f... - Apr 14, 2002 by Lysik  

#19502

Universal instruments registration "UIC IS EXAMPLE ONLY" | 14 April, 2002

Just to let all the folks no. If you register (and pay the fee) a machine with any (OEM) company in the USA You have the same rights as a new user. Companies like UIC, Gen Rad, Agilent, etc came up with these fees to discourage buying used equipment. Now it seems that their scam has not worked. They are changing the rules. The rule is. Any OEM must support a machine for 7 years after the last date of manufacture. Also If a company such as UIC (for example only) gives support or extra support to one of their "better customers" they have just set "standard" Meaning, They must also give you the same support. Never after you register a machine can they say "information on upgrades is not available to you" or "we can not expidite parts to you because you are a competitor." OEM's are allowed to charge a fee to register software and machines. This fee "CAN NOT BE A FEE THAT IS RESTRICTIVE TO BUISNESS." In previous lawsuits, "RESTRICTIVE TO BUSINESS" has been linked to the cost of the base unit. As a example. UIC sells a machine called a 6358. In truth it is a 6348 RAD-2 that has a lot of RAD-5 upgrades. What a awesome machine it is for a small cost. They can drop support on it any day. Why? It is a rebuilt machine. Or is it? They gave it a new product number. It must be a new machine. Another example, "JUST FOR THE LAWYERS LOOKING IS THE 6772" UIC no longer makes it. You can only buy it rebuilt. Will they drop support of it next year? It is funny how OEM's change their mind. Never ask for a policy in print. You may get it or you may not. It will always change. Many laws on the books have given you rights. " XEROX, KODAK, GM, FORD, ETC." This is the first of my many series of the truth.

My name is Christopher Lysik. In 1986 I started my career with SCI. I also worked with MPM, NEA, Comdisco, Europlacer and SCI again. The above is opinion based with many fact's "MANY FACT'S" I can not speak for UIC or the other above companies. I Invite their response.

This is the first of many.

All the best

Christopher S. Lysik

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#19532

Universal instruments registration | 16 April, 2002

I think this licensing thing was a poor decision to begin with. I can understand the reasoning for GenRad to issue a software license, to protect their product against cloning. Why Universal followed could have been caused by the take over and the new owner�s attempt to squeeze more money out of the company. Many Universal employees migrated to other companies like Comdisco and Siemens spreading the news and it was just a matter of time until everyone was asking for this license and registration fee. As a result, the used machines, already sold to dumping prices, lost another $ xx,xxx in value and companies providing third party services got a small boost in business. I agree it is difficult to justify the cost of service, if contractors buy a 10-20 years old machine, third or fourth hand for a few thousand dollars and call the OEM�s help desk 10 times a day. However, if the help is provided from anyone else, it could be also a less qualified help. The machine will only be limping into the junk yard. The machine still carries the manufacturer�s nameplate and this may be all the operator remembers, when he starts his own company and looks into buying new machines. Customers buying used machines are not willing to pay 2-3 times as much for an OEM�s refurbished placement head as they paid for the entire machine. Instead, they may improvise and keep the machine running no matter how bad it is. These machines can�t be a good advertisement for the manufacturer. At the end, it does not pay off to sell a refurbished head for so much profit. The OEM�s should have looked into other industries with longer and better experiences, like automotive. Here I have the choice of having my car maintained by the dealer, a certified dealer/garage or any garage, knowing that I (most likely) get what I pay for. In some cases I see manufacturer�s pride and gleaming eyes if I bring in a twenty years old car for an oil change. As a result of the lawsuit, manufacturers are no longer obligated to machines 7 years and older. I don�t see any winners. The economy will eventually recover. Let�s see who will become the new number one customer�s choice.

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#19535

Universal instruments registration | 16 April, 2002

I do think that people should have to pay a registration fee. It costs a lot of money to run a company like Universal. R&D, help dest etc. They deserve to turn a profit. I also think Universal makes great machines. I am probably their biggest fan. Sometimes I feel like a geek because I can tell you more about their machines than most people working for them. I am very proud that an American company is on the cutting edge like they are. But like a few companies in the business they sometimes Use support of used machines as an issue. They want cutomers not to buy them. There is some dirty pool played. Some times not so bad. Some times down right nasty. Some comments really scare customers. In all fairess many customers know the game and when the OEM's play the support and spare parts availabilty game it really turns the customer off and they buy used. Used equipment is a nasty by product of buling good equipment in the first place. Universal should be proud that a old 1987 RAD-II can sometimes bring more money at auction than a CP-4. "I would just like Customers to share their bad experiences with the rest of us." If you get a hard time by an OEM about parts or support Share it. Tell every one what the sales person said. Put it in this forum. Tell us what the OEM said about the way they deal with used equipment. Not every person or every OEM is terrible to deal with. I find some companies in the Cookson group the be very helpful. They should inspire the rest of the OEM world. Again "please share your experiences with us in this on line forum."

All the best.

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#19548

Universal instruments registration | 17 April, 2002

Here's what ticks me off by the OEM's extorting registration fees out of customers and refusing to support the used equipment market.

You won't get the OEM's to admit it but a large part of their profits are obtained by service and support including the sales of spare parts. By forcing customers to pay registration fees, they're biting into that profit because many customers will not pay the fees and will look elsewhere for service and spare parts. That's just plain crazy. There are plenty of people out there including myself that can service and support this need and as a result, the OEM loses out.

The other thing that makes me laugh is the blatant disregard for the used market. Here's an example. I've got a Panasonic MPA-3 that I have taken off the floor, brought into my facility to clean and/or refurb. I will sell this machine to a customer that would never in a million years consider a new machine from PFA due to the pricing. So while I'm getting this machine ready, I realize I've got a problem with a servo card and would like to purchase this $2,000 card from PFA that they probably make $1,800 in profit on. Are they going to sell it to me? Hell no...I'm a competitor. So I find it used for $500, get this guy's machine running, sell him the machine and all of a sudden, PFA has a new customer for service and support that they would never have had. But first they make him register the machine which he reluctantly does. Maybe this guy's business takes off and in a few years he needs to upgrade and because he liked the MPA-3, he now decides to buy a new complete line from Panasonic. See, I did PFA a big favor by getting this guy into their system. But if this guy never bought anything new from them, they still have another source of revenue they would have never had if it wasn't for my efforts to sell this guy on their platform to begin with. These OEM's will never get it regarding this....the used market is a great source for introducing new customers to their products. They should be thanking me but instead, I get the cold shoulder. Don't get me wrong, I get by fine without their support and have been for years. It just makes me laugh at the dollars they are willing to overlook.

Rick

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#19550

Universal instruments registration | 17 April, 2002

Pansonic is Real good about support once you have registered a machine. But They are in serious violation of the law if you have a part number and want to buy a part. In the USA a OEM must sell you parts no questions asked as long as you have a part number. That law was decided by a land mark case where Kodak would not sell parts to a company that rebuilt copiers and resold them. The court decided that Kodak had to sell parts to the refurb company. As long as they provided a part number. There as so many things that OEM's pull that would not fly in court. Who would call them on it? They no that. I can tell you this with confidence. As long as you have a part number you can order parts with out registering a machine. It is the law. Please encorage others to share their stories. Even if it is what sales people did and said to get orders. There needs to be more integrity in the industry. I really think it seems now that most reputable used equipment dealers have more integrity that a lot of the OEM's. I want to bring this problem to light. I want to document everything. Any and all help would be great.

All the best

Christopher.

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Brian E. Steelglove

#19551

Universal instruments registration | 17 April, 2002

I recently bought a DEK 265 Mark 1 on the used market for $1,500 dollars along with a ABW 1210 Reflow oven which I really wanted. I knew the DEK had not been refurbed but that was fine because I was willing to pay there extremely high prices to have a tech come out and go through the machine. To my surprise when I called Universal they said I would have to register the machine for a crazy amount of $3,500 dollars. Twice as much as what I paid for the machine. I will be honest with you I like there screen printers but I will through the machine in the garbage before I pay that much to register it.

So, I tried to get cute and ask one of there techs if they would do my work on the side some weekend. The person said he could not do it or just did not want to do it. Where does it say in the Constitution that a guy can't make a few extra dollars on the side to help a company out.

Well, if there is anyone out there that knows someone around the Chicago land area please e-mail me back.

Thanks,

Brian

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#19558

Universal instruments registration | 17 April, 2002

A DEK 265 Mark 1 is an old system. That does not mean that it does not work well. It is a very good system. It has however past it's 7 year support life. As far as a person that works for a OEM working on your machine there is no law that says he or she can not. However most service people that work at OEM's have signed an agreement that says they can not work on equipment out side their own company. For Universal or DEK to offer you to register the machine was a good thing. 1 problem if you do register it I think after you do they will tell you it is not supported. A legal problem that is. If you do register a machine with a OEM and pay the money they must support your system. "NO MATTER HOW OLD" Each OEM should have in place a policy about registering discountinued machines. There are also many used equipment dealers that will support and sell you parts for a DEK mark 1. NEA, Lewis and Clark, Recon, ETC. Just some info on the Mark 1. It has a ORS vision system. Front justified stencil and a different paste dispenser than the newer 265 machines. I know of plenty still running strong. It is a good machine that you bought very cheap. In this case you may want to pay the fee to register but make sure before you pay that they will give you all the support. If they do not, e-mail me I will put you in touch with the right folks. Thank you for your response every e-mail helps. It is Folks like you who will help save our freedom.

All the best

Christopher

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#19559

Universal instruments registration | 18 April, 2002

Having been the G.M. of Universal's remanufacturing division for 10 years I am familiar with the "Third Party Support Policy" as I was the primary author of it. The primary reason the policy was developed was to make it more difficult for other resellers to be competitive against Broome Engineering in the secondary market. In discussions with prospective buyers the strategy was to plant doubt in the customers mind about buying from a third party. The fee was one of the tools used to frighten the potential customer away from other third parties for the sole purpose of convincing them to buy only from Universal/Broome Engineering. The idea of the licensing fee funding Universals internal support structure is weak at best since the costs associated with technical support, help desk, etc. is built into the cost of every new machine. The internal support structure existed long before Broome Engineering was created. Looking back on discussions about implementing the policy, in my view it was designed to discourage competition and corner prospective customers into buying used machines from Universal. In an earlier email someone mentioned "the new owners" of Universal. They have been owned by the same parent company, Dover, since 1979.

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#19560

Universal instruments registration | 18 April, 2002

Brian,

Such a deal, how could you NOT take it?

Two comments: * In the words of our ex-president Wild Bill, �Ah feel yer pain.� * TANSTAAFL [There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch] from RA Heinlein's �The Moon is a Harsh Mistress�

That being said, the issue is how best to move forward. Consider: * Asking the reseller where you purchased the equipment for suggestions of a third-party equipment support type. * Contacting other equipment resellers for suggestions on providing support. Some of them routinely refurbish and provide on-going support of equipment. Others �know people�. Search the fine SMTnet Archives for a list of used equipment types.

Taking a different tact, obtain a customer list from DEK. Call those people for suggestions on: * A third-party sevice provider. * Employee that can provide service.

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#19564

Universal instruments registration | 18 April, 2002

I agree with Steve Huey, as a former Field Engineer and Asian Customer service manager living in Hong Kong for almost 10 years with little blue, there has been an incremental hit on all of the OEM's combined profits.They needed a strategy and some scare put into their straying customer base.

They have used their registration fees to discourage new and old customers to purchase other than new or "certified" re-manufactured machines. It's an additional hit that the customer must fund, thus taking away from their alternative lower price being offered by a re-seller or other re-manufacturer.

The only item(s) a customer receives in my eyes is upgraded software,( the original doesn't work? ) and manuals. I don't see any reduced fees in hourly service not to mention the lack in equipment knowledge base the new college degrees offer and most defintely do not see any reduced fees in the purchase of new parts.

So what does a registration fee get you?

PS, all those other parts makers beware, I hear they are setting up local made in the PRC parts center to hopefully recoup some of those lost $$$ and it may also be offered for sale in the good old USA.

Bottom line is all that matters.

Thomas Ravener EED,llc

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#19579

Universal instruments registration | 18 April, 2002

If Universal for example decides they want to implement a registration fee to pursade customers from buying used then why have they dropped their shorts from $20,000 to register a GSM in 2000 to $2,000 recently? Guess they were tired of losing customers. When people find out about their fees, they turn to another OEM. I've seen it happen quite a few times. The only OEM out there that has a grasp of sanity regarding this issue is Cookson and I will gladly promote and refer customers to their product line. I think the OEM's will come around eventually. They are leaving too much money on the table for it to go unnoticed forever.

Rick Flayler- Fastek International

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#19586

Universal instruments registration | 19 April, 2002

Capital Investment International consolidates the many owners of Dover, which may make business a bit more difficult compared to most of the competitors, who don�t have to spend a large percentage from profits to their owners. The poor business decision is my own personal opinion. Out of many reasons, including the implemented cost of service, the used machines from OEM�s will always be quite more expensive than the once from dealerships. If prices are 2-3 times as much as the average dealer price then the OEM�s will have a small problem. To explain the higher cost with higher quality of refurbishment does not sell well either or does a 2-3 year old machine really require $100,000 in refurbishment cost? Instead of cooperating with the dealerships, providing free training on the machines, allow dealers to buy spares to reduced prices and establish certified dealerships, who in turn would have reported new customers as part of the agreement, Universal fired a gun against the used machine dealer. To my humble opinion the shot went backwards. Universal machines have achieved a high quality standard, are well built and designed. It is not worth the registration fee to loose a good name with this argument.

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jeffreybrown

#19590

Universal instruments registration | 19 April, 2002

I have read with interest this string of opinions about support of old machines. I am the service manager of Contact Systems and I deal with customer support every day. Our policy is to treat all owners of Contact machines in an evenhanded way. The word support is somewhat ambiguous but here is what it means to us.

We sell spare parts to everyone at the same price. We have no minimum order. There is no specific time period that we supply parts such as the suggested seven years after the last machine produced. What actually happens is some of our suppliers may discontinue a part without forewarning us. In this case we can only supply the part until our inventory runs out. We currently supply almost all the parts for our CS400 C, which we stopped producing in 1990. We supply all the parts we can make in house for an unlimited time. But electrical components, which we buy outside, are often discontinued. We are constantly finding alternate sources for these components so that we can keep these old machines running.

If you buy an old Contact machine either from a broker or direct from another customer you can elect to either go it alone or request �support� from us. We charge $1500 for second owner support on CS400 series and $3,000 on Contact 3 series. We don�t care where you bought the machine. And we have no animosity towards brokers. We are happy to have you as a new customer. For this fee you get up to three days free training, unlimited phone support and free software upgrades. Why do we charge this fee? When we sell a machine new or reconditioned we include this support in our price. We do not include in or price the obligation to do it over again in later years. In fact a machine may have multiple owners over its lifetime all of which may require training and phone support. Of course if you have experience with Contact machines you may not need our support and you do not need to order it. And you can always buy spare parts at any time without any extra fee. We believe it is reasonable to charge a customer for the many hours it may take to walk him through the start up phase of getting a used machine up and running.

The ability of a used equipment broker to service the machines they sell varies considerably. Some of them have service engineers or connections with these people who free lance. Most are ex employees of one of the machine manufacturers and are quite competent. But usually their expertise is limited to the vintage machines being produced when they left the company. They are typically not familiar with the revs and nuances of newer machines. So there is some risk that the broker may not be able to fix a machine. In this case we are ready willing and able to provide the service to get the machine functional. We do whatever it takes to get a Contact customer happy.

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#19592

Universal instruments registration | 19 April, 2002

To CS:

If you "build" in this cost for telephone support on new and recond machines, because that's all we're talking about here since you are being paid for parts and field service, and the original purchaser sells the machine then they won't be calling you any more or as frequently if say they had two machines and sold one off, will they? No, of course not. For you to provide the new user with telephone tech support is in your best interest, as per Mr. Flayler's prior comments- which are so correct. Take this cost out of the sales & marketing budget. Get it?

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#19602

Universal instruments registration | 20 April, 2002

It is not just the rgistration fee. It is the fact that often after you register the machine you sre still denied a certian portion of service. UIC is very in check with their registration pricing. OEM's do however have a clause that says we can not register your machine at our likig. Then the games start. Like we need to inspect your machine. We need to see if it is up to spec. Then they look at it and give you a proposed bill of 10K or 20K to bring the system up to snuff before you are even allowed to register it. They use this only in cases that are going to cost them a large sale but I have many documented cases.

All the best

Christopher

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#19603

Universal instruments registration | 20 April, 2002

My only comment on this e-mail is VERY GOOD POINT.

All the best

Christopher

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#19604

Universal instruments registration | 20 April, 2002

Steve Huey is a real MAN. "NO GENDER DISRIMINATION" I competed with him for a few years. He has integrity, smarts, a smile, and honesty. Ruthless none the less. I only dream of the days that UIC's anti competitive practices were those of the days of Steve Huey. He did what he had to do to shut my previous comapny out of the market. And when a customer asked about us Vs them he would say I think UIC does a better job and these are the reasons why. None of this new stuff like. So and so makes their parts in Asia, you will never get support, That machine is old. Steve would say you need a UIC machine because we built it we can rebuild it we are the right source. That is a real PRO. A man that sells on Quality, integrity, service and technical advancments. By the way UIC makes many parts in China. "I THINK." I do think UIC still builds the best stuff in the world. I only hope they get the giant stick that is stuck directly up their butt out of it.

All the best

Christopher

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