Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


John Godfrey

#13804

Help with new placement equipment | 14 October, 1998

I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now.

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Jason

#13805

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 14 October, 1998

John, Universal has a smaller footprint HSP chipshooter, I believe the 4795S and the 4796R that takeup a lot less space than the full sized chipshooters do. I have a 4795S, it's just as reliable as our full sized 4795's & 96's. As far as BGA's I prefer the Universal GSM, which is also capable of placing 0402, however depending on your through-put requirements you probably need to team it up with an HSP. GSM's are very reliable and accurate, however thay aren't the fastest. There is a very wide spectrum of GSM apps that are availible, you would need to evaluate your capactity requirements to better chose which model would suit your process more realistically. Another alternative is a Zevatech. Though I personally don't like them they carry a minimal footprint which is what your asking for. Ovens very in size. Decide which method is best for your app, such as are you curing, reflowing, or both? Ir is good for curing but I highly suggest a forced convection for reflow. BTU, Vitronics, and I hear RI have very good units. Printers? Are you looking for inline or manual. I have used DEK,SMTech, and MPM. MPM is a good unit but holds a larger footprint. I recommend the DEK 265GSX or LT. In my opinion you get more bang for your buck. SMTech is a DEK clone at the fraction of the cost, however recent buyouts and company reorganization is hindering their customer service, that is what I have been told from former colleges who have purchased the SMTech's.

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Sjef van Gastel

#13806

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 15 October, 1998

|John,

Why do not you consider the Philips Powerline concept ? The Powerline consists of the combination of FCM and ACM. These 2 machines represent the best in class in SMD placement. The FCM can accomodate 96 8 mm tapefeeders, while the ACM can accomodate up to 100 8 mm feeders. The ACM is a flexible high-precision placer ( placement accuracy better than 30 microns @ 4 sigma ! )that is also capable of placing CSPs and Flip-Chips. You can contact Tom Foley at Philips EMT Alpharetta fot more info. Regards,

Sjef van Gastel.

I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. |

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Rudolf Kappel

#13807

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 15 October, 1998

Please have a look on the internet ... mimot.com. They offer a low volume, high mix system.

Kind regards Rudy

| I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. |

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Justin Medernach

#13808

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 15 October, 1998

| I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. | Check out Amistar 7100 FV. Very flexible, small footprint. Under 160k. Does it all.

justin

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Dave F

#13809

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 15 October, 1998

| | I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. | | | Check out Amistar 7100 FV. Very flexible, small footprint. Under 160k. Does it all. | | justin | Justin: Have you used a Amistar 7100 FV? How's their support?

Dave F

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Scott McKee

#13810

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 15 October, 1998

| I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. | I've shoehorned 2 Mydatas, a MPM SPM, a Heller 1500 and other support "stuff" into a 500sq/ft room.(18'X28'). I do 0402s, uBGAs, BGAs and they advertise flip-chip. Can upgrade to a hydra at 14,400 pph. Can't go wrong with a Mydata TP9 in a high mix, low volume environment.

Good luck, Scott

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Jim McCarten

#13811

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 16 October, 1998

I would not expect 30 microns to be good enough for flip chip. Maybe I have it wrong, but isn't that +/- 1.5 mils? With bumps on flip chip approaching 3 or 4 mils, I would stay away from a 30 micron machine!

| |John, | | Why do not you consider the Philips Powerline concept ? | The Powerline consists of the combination of FCM and ACM. These | 2 machines represent the best in class in SMD placement. | The FCM can accomodate 96 8 mm tapefeeders, while the ACM can accomodate up to 100 8 mm feeders. The ACM is a flexible high-precision placer ( placement accuracy better than 30 microns @ 4 sigma ! )that is also capable of placing CSPs and Flip-Chips. | You can contact Tom Foley at Philips EMT Alpharetta fot more info.

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Jim McCarten

#13812

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 16 October, 1998

I do not think that the Mydata can pick from wafer or has the accuracy required (12 micron)! Am I missing something?

| | I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. | | | I've shoehorned 2 Mydatas, a MPM SPM, a Heller 1500 and other support "stuff" into a 500sq/ft room.(18'X28'). I do 0402s, uBGAs, BGAs and they advertise flip-chip. Can upgrade to a hydra at 14,400 pph. Can't go wrong with a Mydata TP9 in a high mix, low volume environment. | | Good luck, | Scott |

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Scott Cook

#13813

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 16 October, 1998

John,

I'll throw my bit of confusion into the pot, here. Your limited floorspace, coupled with your technology mix vs. volume mix narrows the scope of your search.

You don't say what your budget is, or whether you are looking for speed. I'll give you my opinions based upon high end and mid-range placement platforms......

High end: You would not go wrong with Siemens SiPlace gear. Nice small footprints, great accuracy, reliability, and repeatability.

Mid-range: Hmmm....several combos come to mind. Have you looked at MultiTroniks / Europlacer Equipment? They are hungry for market penetration in the domestic market. Probably get a great deal.......and a trade-in clause if you know how to beat 'em down during negotiations.

Zeva might also be a good choice for you. they are partnered with UniCam, so you could end up with a total CIM package.

Philips makes solid gear, as well. Good selection of platforms based upon your needs. I think the FCM would be severe overkill in your scenario.

In my part of the country, Amistar has NO market presence. I don't know a lot about their support after the sale, but I'd be cautious.

My 2 cents. Best of Luck in your Quest! Scott Cook

| I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. |

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smd

#13814

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 16 October, 1998

| | | I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. | | | | | Check out Amistar 7100 FV. Very flexible, small footprint. Under 160k. Does it all. | | | | justin | | | Justin: Have you used a Amistar 7100 FV? How's their support? | | Dave F | I think the 7100FV would have a very hard time doing flip chips or any weird OFCs (no programmable downforce and 80mm Max length on SMT connectors). They swore to us that the machine would place a 42.5 MM2 PBGA so it does have good capability and it has awesome speed. It's funny (depending on whether your paycheck says Amistar on it) how the service issue keeps coming up. We have an Amistar DIP inserter here and i've met several Techs; they know their stuff (becoming rare) but there isn't very many of them. This, as I understand, is improving.
With the matrix tray feeder and shipping and installation the 7100FV is only 200K. SMD

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Scott

#13815

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 16 October, 1998

| I do not think that the Mydata can pick from wafer or has the accuracy required (12 micron)! Am I missing something?

I don't have personnal experience with flip chip but the next time you're at Nepcon ask Mydata to show you their demo board with the flip chip on it - as they advertize... | | | | I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. | | | | | I've shoehorned 2 Mydatas, a MPM SPM, a Heller 1500 and other support "stuff" into a 500sq/ft room.(18'X28'). I do 0402s, uBGAs, BGAs and they advertise flip-chip. Can upgrade to a hydra at 14,400 pph. Can't go wrong with a Mydata TP9 in a high mix, low volume environment. | | | | Good luck, | | Scott | | | |

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Stefan Witte

#13816

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 17 October, 1998

I think the Universal and the Siemens machine are a good marriage. However, dealing with two different vendors may create additional difficulties. As both parties want to make the deal with you, you might want to bypass the sales people to get more in depth technical information about possible feeder and software sharing. This is a very hot issue nobody likes to discuss in public. If you have two different machines you have two different component feeders. Or is there a way to use the feeders from one vendor on the other machine? The Universal feeders appear to be a bit higher than the Siemens feeders, but if you could raise the table of the Universal machine, you might be able to use the Siemens feeders on both machines. Software wise you don't want to program two machines with the same board. You have to find a way that one line computer controls both machines. I'm not saying it works, nor do I advertise a solution, but I know if you ask loud enough you will get a satisfying answer. Good luck ! Stefan

| I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. |

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Curt Goldman

#13817

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 19 October, 1998

| I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. |

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Dave Kalen

#13818

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 21 October, 1998

The Sanyo Short machine, with 80 8mm feeder slots is a great high speed with a small footprint. The new TIM-5000 flexible placer offers an incredible range of components and flexibility. You may want to consider this option also. Depending on your budget and location, it may be a good choice.

Dave Kalen

| I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. |

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The Guc

#13819

Re: Help with new placement equipment | 10 September, 1999

| | | | I need to install some new lines for high mix low volume products in an already cramp building. Could someone share any info about the machines which give you the best bang for floor space. I need a 2 machine system for placing 0402 to fine pitch, BGA's, and flip chip. We run boards with only 15-25 different parts, and only have about 150 parts in the inventory. Both machines do not have to come from the same company. I am thinking about GSM's, FCM's, and HS50's right now. | | | | | | | Check out Amistar 7100 FV. Very flexible, small footprint. Under 160k. Does it all. | | | | | | justin | | | | | Justin: Have you used a Amistar 7100 FV? How's their support? | | | | Dave F | | | I think the 7100FV would have a very hard time doing flip chips or any weird OFCs (no programmable downforce and 80mm Max length on SMT connectors). They swore to us that the machine would place a 42.5 MM2 PBGA so it does have good capability and it has awesome speed. It's funny (depending on whether your paycheck says Amistar on it) how the service issue keeps coming up. We have an Amistar DIP inserter here and i've met several Techs; they know their stuff | (becoming rare) but there isn't very many of them. This, as I understand, is improving.
| With the matrix tray feeder and shipping and installation the 7100FV is only 200K. | SMD | Did you buy yet?

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