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Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives?

Jon Medernach

#13132

Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 3 January, 1999

If passive componets are cheaper why aren't they more popular? Manufacturers like Murata and AVX claim availability and substantial cost savings but little interest seems to exist. Why? Your input is greatly appreciated.

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Wayne

#13133

Re: Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 4 January, 1999

| If passive componets are cheaper why aren't they more popular? Manufacturers like Murata and AVX claim availability and substantial cost savings but little interest seems to exist. Why? Your input is greatly appreciated. | Because people just do not have the equipment to feed them with

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K Gossman

#13134

Re: Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 5 January, 1999

| If passive componets are cheaper why aren't they more popular? Manufacturers like Murata and AVX claim availability and substantial cost savings but little interest seems to exist. Why? Your input is greatly appreciated. | It is my understanding that bulk fed components have to hold a very tight tolerance in order to feed correctly. This drives the price of these parts up.

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Michael Allen

#13135

Re: Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 5 January, 1999

Another concern is that some bulk feeders present resistors upside-down 50% of the time; I'm told that this can affect heat dissipation and cause other problems (e.g., hidden partmark).

Note: this is not a problem with chip capacitors because they're symmetrical top-to-bottom.

| If passive componets are cheaper why aren't they more popular? Manufacturers like Murata and AVX claim availability and substantial cost savings but little interest seems to exist. Why? Your input is greatly appreciated. |

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Hallj

#13136

Re: Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 5 January, 1999

| If passive componets are cheaper why aren't they more popular? Manufacturers like Murata and AVX claim availability and substantial cost savings but little interest seems to exist. Why? Your input is greatly appreciated. | I use bulk fed components all the time. The one thing you need to remember is that, like stated earlier, unless you don't mind not being able to see the markings on a majority of parts, like resistors, you are limited to placing cap's only. I use the Chip Jet by Universal and have no problems. The handling of the equipment, i.e. Feeders, nozzles, ect., needs to be kepted to a minimum. These might be over the heads of a few operators and are expensive to keep replacing. Overall the machine works great and can cut down your cycle time by a great deal. If you need any info. on how this particular machine works or how to operate it feel free to let me know!

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Michael Allen

#13137

Re: Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 6 January, 1999

I was told today that upside-down placments may not cause thermal problems (at least according to one of our suppliers). Sounds like this problem could be application-dependent (supplier, R-value, actual wattage).

Does anybody have hard evidence that this (i.e., upside-down resistors) either is or is not a problem?

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Enza Hill

#13138

Re: Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 6 January, 1999

I'm not sure I'm offering an answer, more a question I have...Isn't there an issue with automated PnP machines whose feeder carriage moves? Have companies such as Fuji, Universal/Sanyo, Panasonic developed the capability to use bulk feeders? I would think that bulk fed passives would be very attractive in high volume applications where these suppliers are common. So is it a matter of little interest or no current capability?

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Another concern is that some bulk feeders present resistors upside-down 50% of the time; I'm told that this can affect heat dissipation and cause other problems (e.g., hidden partmark). | | Note: this is not a problem with chip capacitors because they're symmetrical top-to-bottom. | | | If passive componets are cheaper why aren't they more popular? Manufacturers like Murata and AVX claim availability and substantial cost savings but little interest seems to exist. Why? Your input is greatly appreciated. | | | | |

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Michael Allen

#13139

Re: Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 6 January, 1999

Actually, the capability does exist, even on chip shooters w/ feeder carriages. We've been using Sanyo's cassette feeder on their turret machine (TCM3500) for over a year with 0603 caps. I don't know about Fuji or Panasonic.

| I'm not sure I'm offering an answer, more a question I have...Isn't there an issue with automated PnP machines whose feeder carriage moves? Have companies such as Fuji, Universal/Sanyo, Panasonic developed the capability to use bulk feeders? I would think that bulk fed passives would be very attractive in high volume applications where these suppliers are common. So is it a matter of little interest or no current capability? | | e | | Another concern is that some bulk feeders present resistors upside-down 50% of the time; I'm told that this can affect heat dissipation and cause other problems (e.g., hidden partmark). | | | | Note: this is not a problem with chip capacitors because they're symmetrical top-to-bottom. | | | | | If passive componets are cheaper why aren't they more popular? Manufacturers like Murata and AVX claim availability and substantial cost savings but little interest seems to exist. Why? Your input is greatly appreciated. | | | | | | | | | | |

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Andy

#13140

Re: Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 6 January, 1999

| | If passive componets are cheaper why aren't they more popular? Manufacturers like Murata and AVX claim availability and substantial cost savings but little interest seems to exist. Why? Your input is greatly appreciated. | | | Because people just do not have the equipment to feed them with | I was at the PROTEC Exhibition in Tokyo in Nov and most of the Placement kit Manufacturers were actively showing Bulk Feeders with passives . Some of the bigger guys were demo'ing kit aimed specifically at using bulk feeders for very high throughput on small pcb's (Panasonic's MSH series) .Panasonic also claimed to have 8 out of the 10 major component suppliers tied into producing passives for use on their kit . They also claimed to have solved the problem with feeder jams and of components flipping over in the supply line ..... My bet is we'll see Bulk Feeders as a big item in the Mobile Phones market this year - watch this space ! .

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H. van Leeuwen

#13141

Re: Why so little interest in Bulk Fed passives? | 8 January, 1999

| If passive componets are cheaper why aren't they more popular? Manufacturers like Murata and AVX claim availability and substantial cost savings but little interest seems to exist. Why? Your input is greatly appreciated.

| Good question... I work for Philips EMT and we have for quite some time promoting the bulkfeed option. The performance is great: single digit ppm's in machine stops! But still... the penetration of bulkfeeding is very low. In my opinion for several reason:

- as mentioned : The fear that something could be wrong with up-side down placement of resistors.

- The fact that changing to bulk is not only a technical decision: when the engineer decided that this might be something to implement purchasing and logistics have to change to.

- Maybe the most important one : the fear of mixing the wrong components in a bulkfeeder. It is not easy to correct a set-up or re-loading error once a wrong component codenumber is loaded.

- re-invest in feeders which are in most cases more expensive.

- component suppliers have been reluctant to change. The insentive is not really there for them. They are confronted with thighter dimension specifications and lower prices (at the moment down to 5%!).

Despite all these "points of attention" it is my opinion that bulkfeeding is wortwhile considering. The advantages are quite obvious not only with Philips bulkfeeders but also with the bulkfeeders of my dear colleagues. I can provide you with addresses of users who implemented bulkfeeding and who think this is "the best invention since sliced bread".

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