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SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


Siemens Reliability

Mike Evarts

#12413

Siemens Reliability | 5 March, 1999

We are currently looking into purchasing a high volume, medium mix production line. We are considering several different vendors and I would like to know if current users of Siemens equipment are happy. Are the machines maintenance intensive? How is the software?

Thanks Mike

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Scott Cook

#12414

Re: Siemens Reliability | 5 March, 1999

| We are currently looking into purchasing a high volume, medium mix production line. We are considering several different vendors and I would like to know if current users of Siemens equipment are happy. Are the machines maintenance intensive? How is the software? | | Thanks | Mike | Hi Mike.

I just left a firm who was a Siemens user. In fact, I'm the guy who spec'd the equipment. My first personal exposure to the gear (in 26 years of manufacturing), so I kinda took a chance...... I was familiar with the reputation of the older SP and HS stuff, but took a fresh look at Siemens and SiPlace.

Our application was a HIGHLY CIM integrated shop. Medium to High volume, high mix. Very automated. High end RF / Wireless products. VERY spooky stuff......solid processes were mandatory.

I was VERY pleased with the SiPlace platforms. You may get a case of initial "sticker shock" at first, but the savings in changeover and down times are very substantial. After Siemens, we ran in 6 hours what had previously taken us to run 2.5 shifts through the SMT work center! The SiPlace platform gained us capacity / utilization out the wazoo.

In terms of overall performance, the feeder carts are wonderful. The feeders are solid; some of the best in the industry. I bought three years ago, so had the legacy Unix (aka Munix) line computer. The newer gear and line computer is much more user friendly.

If you budget for one or two of your techs to go to two or three of the offered Siemens maintenance courses each, you'll have it licked. But don't forget to budget about 10% extra (on top of your platform and feeders) for a solid set of spares. And buy your own.....not a "kit". Sit down with your guys, and get their inputs based upon their experiences. You don't need to buy fuses and junk from an OEM. I bought extra star heads and calibration tools. As a result, the Siemens stuff simply NEVER goes down! I'm very impressed. The pain level in engineering went AWAY in SMT.......(buy a good printer, too!)

You should know that I also had the luxury of owning a world class maintenance organization--fantastic group. Very talented.

Scott

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Earl Moon

#12415

Re: Siemens Reliability | 5 March, 1999

| | We are currently looking into purchasing a high volume, medium mix production line. We are considering several different vendors and I would like to know if current users of Siemens equipment are happy. Are the machines maintenance intensive? How is the software? | | | | Thanks | | Mike | | | Hi Mike. | | I just left a firm who was a Siemens user. In fact, I'm the guy who spec'd the equipment. My first personal exposure to the gear (in 26 years of manufacturing), so I kinda took a chance...... I was familiar with the reputation of the older SP and HS stuff, but took a fresh look at Siemens and SiPlace. | | Our application was a HIGHLY CIM integrated shop. Medium to High volume, high mix. Very automated. High end RF / Wireless products. VERY spooky stuff......solid processes were mandatory. | | I was VERY pleased with the SiPlace platforms. You may get a case of initial "sticker shock" at first, but the savings in changeover and down times are very substantial. After Siemens, we ran in 6 hours what had previously taken us to run 2.5 shifts through the SMT work center! The SiPlace platform gained us capacity / utilization out the wazoo. | | In terms of overall performance, the feeder carts are wonderful. The feeders are solid; some of the best in the industry. I bought three years ago, so had the legacy Unix (aka Munix) line computer. The newer gear and line computer is much more user friendly. | | If you budget for one or two of your techs to go to two or three of the offered Siemens maintenance courses each, you'll have it licked. But don't forget to budget about 10% extra (on top of your platform and feeders) for a solid set of spares. And buy your own.....not a "kit". Sit down with your guys, and get their inputs based upon their experiences. You don't need to buy fuses and junk from an OEM. I bought extra star heads and calibration tools. As a result, the Siemens stuff simply NEVER goes down! I'm very impressed. The pain level in engineering went AWAY in SMT.......(buy a good printer, too!) | | You should know that I also had the luxury of owning a world class maintenance organization--fantastic group. Very talented. | | Scott | Scott,

This is the best response I've seen on the internet concerning real, down to earth SMT stuff, with real praise and advice.

Earl Moon

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Scott Cook

#12416

Re: Siemens Reliability | 6 March, 1999

| | | We are currently looking into purchasing a high volume, medium mix production line. We are considering several different vendors and I would like to know if current users of Siemens equipment are happy. Are the machines maintenance intensive? How is the software? | | | | | | Thanks | | | Mike | | | | | Hi Mike. | | | | I just left a firm who was a Siemens user. In fact, I'm the guy who spec'd the equipment. My first personal exposure to the gear (in 26 years of manufacturing), so I kinda took a chance...... I was familiar with the reputation of the older SP and HS stuff, but took a fresh look at Siemens and SiPlace. | | | | Our application was a HIGHLY CIM integrated shop. Medium to High volume, high mix. Very automated. High end RF / Wireless products. VERY spooky stuff......solid processes were mandatory. | | | | I was VERY pleased with the SiPlace platforms. You may get a case of initial "sticker shock" at first, but the savings in changeover and down times are very substantial. After Siemens, we ran in 6 hours what had previously taken us to run 2.5 shifts through the SMT work center! The SiPlace platform gained us capacity / utilization out the wazoo. | | | | In terms of overall performance, the feeder carts are wonderful. The feeders are solid; some of the best in the industry. I bought three years ago, so had the legacy Unix (aka Munix) line computer. The newer gear and line computer is much more user friendly. | | | | If you budget for one or two of your techs to go to two or three of the offered Siemens maintenance courses each, you'll have it licked. But don't forget to budget about 10% extra (on top of your platform and feeders) for a solid set of spares. And buy your own.....not a "kit". Sit down with your guys, and get their inputs based upon their experiences. You don't need to buy fuses and junk from an OEM. I bought extra star heads and calibration tools. As a result, the Siemens stuff simply NEVER goes down! I'm very impressed. The pain level in engineering went AWAY in SMT.......(buy a good printer, too!) | | | | You should know that I also had the luxury of owning a world class maintenance organization--fantastic group. Very talented. | | | | Scott | | | Scott, | | This is the best response I've seen on the internet concerning real, down to earth SMT stuff, with real praise and advice. | | Earl Moon | Earl,

I had to give myself some time to let my head come back to normal size .....

Seriously, thanks for your kind words. There are LOTS of good, solid SMT Placement platforms out there, now. I'm convinced that the trick in choosing your future automation partner for SMT is in understanding your application, and narrowing down your choices based upon your needs.

Scott

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Oukai

#12417

Re: Siemens Reliability | 7 March, 1999

I have used Siemens placement machine for four years,from MS-102 to Siplace 80S13,Siplace 80S15 and 80F3,by my opinion,i think siemens is reliable,machine runing is stable,maintainance is very simple,our new 80S15&80F3 were buyed in Dec 1997,they only down 3 times in one year,and i only spend less than 24 hours to repaired them , i recommend you buy the new Siemens 80S20 & 80F4 or higher,it's much better,by the way,my english is not good,i hope you can understand

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John Godfrey

#12418

Re: Siemens Reliability | 8 March, 1999

| We are currently looking into purchasing a high volume, medium mix production line. We are considering several different vendors and I would like to know if current users of Siemens equipment are happy. Are the machines maintenance intensive? How is the software? | | Thanks | Mike |

I hate to be the only one with bad news, but we are having hours of downtime per week per machine for issues which we should not be seeing on a mature platform, the S20's. We are continually replacing the head and vacuum cards, replacing the vacuum plungers, fighting errors from every axis in the heads, and every vacuum error programmed into the machine. We have had a field service guy living at our facility M-F since last Thanksgiving, all parts and expenses paid by Siemens.

If you will be placing a high number of IC's with the machine, ask for the #720 nozzles with the filter material. We are helping them develop them here, but I assume they will be universally available soon. They claim the high number of IC's placed is the root of our problems, but even with the filters stopping the dust from the laser scribes we still have problems.

I was very impressed with the feeders when we first received them. I liked the solid construction and the variable pitch. BUt, now that we are placing 0603 with the S20's the techs are going crazy pulling the feeders apart to remove parts which are jamming them up.

I have also been dissapointed with the system controls for the heads. If one of the 2 heads has a problem, you can't disable it and just have one head run. Liekwise for individual segments/nozzles in each head, it's an all or nothing machine.

We were looking at the new HS50, and in our demo they could not get the pairs of gantries to have the same cycle time, even when only placing 1 part type. At best there was a 15% imbalance between the gantries.

We are looking elsewhere for our next line(s).

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Tom B.

#12419

Re: Siemens Reliability | 9 March, 1999

We use Siemens equipment at our plant. I agree with what everyone said in the forum. These machines are primarily made for fixed or specfic PCB runs. The feeders are very well built as others have metioned. If you plan on excessive change over's, set up of different PCB's, you will find that you may loose quite a few parts. Feeders have gear mesh pull of tape cover strip that damages it, so when remove the tape then reinstall it will most likey break. You can by change tables ( high cost and you will need extra feeders)to speed up changes.

From a maitenance veiw I find that is easier to work on than most other machines, remove cover doors and its wide open. On the other hand when turret heads are removed (whole head block) recalibration of cameras and offset may need to be done. Tape cutter mechanism can become jammed, which will force you to remove component table to repair. Parts is a different story, some can be purchased seperate and some purchased packaged ( if you need lens cover for camera, Have to buy the whole camera). Documentation of maintenance tasks are okay, but I would suggest your techs take the training course.

For software, I would opt for VMPS module. This will allow programing of PCB and machine setup in less than hour, if not then you will have to manualy enter every part number, centroid, package style (805,1206) then optimize. This can take some serious time. If considering used equipment, upgrades of software will also need upgrade of firmware in Placer ( not to mention recalibration). The software documentation could be improved, alot of function are not explained. There are some good features that can allow you to just place one part (just like rework).

Siemens techsupport is better than it has ever been, but still ocassionally "let me check an call you back". Some guys know more than others so you may have to call a couple of times.

Tom B.

| We are currently looking into purchasing a high volume, medium mix production line. We are considering several different vendors and I would like to know if current users of Siemens equipment are happy. Are the machines maintenance intensive? How is the software? | | Thanks | Mike |

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The Shanker

#12420

Re: Siemens Reliability | 10 March, 1999

Hey Mike,

Check out the GSM-FlexJet!

Guess Who?

Here's a hint. Fore!

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Mike Greening

#12421

Re: Siemens Reliability | 16 March, 1999

| | We are currently looking into purchasing a high volume, medium mix production line. We are considering several different vendors and I would like to know if current users of Siemens equipment are happy. Are the machines maintenance intensive? How is the software? | | | | Thanks | | Mike | | | | I hate to be the only one with bad news, but we are having hours of downtime per week per machine for issues which we should not be seeing on a mature platform, the S20's. We are continually replacing the head and vacuum cards, replacing the vacuum plungers, fighting errors from every axis in the heads, and every vacuum error programmed into the machine. We have had a field service guy living at our facility M-F since last Thanksgiving, all parts and expenses paid by Siemens. | | If you will be placing a high number of IC's with the machine, ask for the #720 nozzles with the filter material. We are helping them develop them here, but I assume they will be universally available soon. They claim the high number of IC's placed is the root of our problems, but even with the filters stopping the dust from the laser scribes we still have problems. | | I was very impressed with the feeders when we first received them. I liked the solid construction and the variable pitch. BUt, now that we are placing 0603 with the S20's the techs are going crazy pulling the feeders apart to remove parts which are jamming them up. | | I have also been dissapointed with the system controls for the heads. If one of the 2 heads has a problem, you can't disable it and just have one head run. Liekwise for individual segments/nozzles in each head, it's an all or nothing machine. | | We were looking at the new HS50, and in our demo they could not get the pairs of gantries to have the same cycle time, even when only placing 1 part type. At best there was a 15% imbalance between the gantries. | | We are looking elsewhere for our next line(s). |

Wow. This is very different from our experience. We've run S-20's and F4's for over 2 years and have seen nothing like this. Typically we see around half an hour of downtime per week and in 2 years we have only had to replace 1 head board. Only now after 2 years are we starting to replace vacuum plungers as part of our regular maintenance program.

The jammed feeder issue is not one we have experienced. We run a wide variety of parts from 0402s to large QFPs and have not seen these parts jam the feeders.

We have found that preventative maintenance program recommended by Siemens to be very effective at keeping the machines running well. The software is stable and user friendly.

We remain happy with the uptime and placement quality of the equipment after 2 years of use.

Mike

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