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Hey Guys, you gotta check this out!

#11731

Hey Guys, you gotta check this out! | 25 April, 1999

Hey Guys!

Look what I get to try and do this week! I got handed a cardboard box on Friday afternoon with the parts and 20 of these little jewels! That's both sides of the board by the way...

Whoever laid this out, I'd like to go and do a "Back to the Future" thing on him, you know the scene when George McFly's bullies come up to him and rap on his head with their knuckles and go; "Hello...anybody home in there?!?"

Sheesh! I can't believe I got handed this! As you can see, it's 1.7" X 2.7", and about .039" thick. The QFP is 15.7-mil pitch and those are two microBGA's, a 144-ball, and a 48-ball.

Look at how close to the edges the dude put components, and then on top of that the boneheads had these boards made indivdually! Oh, here's another thing you'll like. The MicroBGA pads are actually filled via's! Nice little domes of solder for pads because the board was hasl'ed.

Ya' know, instead of rapping on the designers head with my knuckles, I think I'm just gonna ask him if he'll share some of the LSD he was taking when he laid this thing out...

Anyway, what I'd like to do is give the whole bloody mess back and not touch it. But unfortunately that's not an option. I let my boss know what a mess this thing is, and told him I ain't guarantee'ing diddly. "I know Steve.." he tells me,"But see what you can do" I've had luck on my side and pulled some miracles off before, so I'm gonna try...but I think this time I'm in deep Kimchee...

Oh, one other little tidbit, they kitted this thing with parts from DigiKey...you know,10-piece strips? So the whole thing has to be handplaced...0402's and all. At least the QFP's and MicroBGA's are in matrix trays and not in plastic bags.

I am gonna machine place the QFP and MicroBGA's...write a quick program for that...and I plan to "Rube Goldberg" me a little pallet with some plain laminate and carlson contact pins to locate the board onto it.

But I gotta question for ya'll; will one of you guys build this for me? No? Awwww you're no fun! Just kidding! Seriously, what side would you try and do first? The side with the QFP and 144-ball MicroBGA, or the side with only the 48-ball MicroBGA? I'm thinking the side with the QFP because I don't know what the board is gonna do through the first reflow, may warp on me a little, and I figure I'll start with the side with the QFP and MicroBGA while the board is still flat since I want to able to print that side good...I mean I want to be able to print both sides good, but it'll be easier if I only have to deal with one critical location instead of two if the board curls on me...

Oh, a little tip about MicroBGA apertures if you ain't already heard this, I get all my MicroBGA apertures made into squares instead of leaving them circles...paste releases better from squares than it does with circles, and gives you a teeny bit more slop factor for placement...the overprinted corners of the square will wick back onto the pads fine during reflow. I normally get a 4-mil thick stencil for 15.7-mil and MicroBGA by the way...

Sure you don't wanna take this off my hands?

-Steve "How did I get in this mess?" Gregory-

reply »

Bubba

#11732

Re: Hey Guys, you gotta check this out! | 25 April, 1999

| Hey Guys! | | Look what I get to try and do this week! I got handed a cardboard box on Friday afternoon with the parts and 20 of these little jewels! That's both sides of the board by the way... | | Whoever laid this out, I'd like to go and do a "Back to the Future" thing on him, you know the scene when George McFly's bullies come up to him and rap on his head with their knuckles and go; "Hello...anybody home in there?!?" | | Sheesh! I can't believe I got handed this! As you can see, it's 1.7" X 2.7", and about .039" thick. The QFP is 15.7-mil pitch and those are two microBGA's, a 144-ball, and a 48-ball. | | Look at how close to the edges the dude put components, and then on top of that the boneheads had these boards made indivdually! Oh, here's another thing you'll like. The MicroBGA pads are actually filled via's! Nice little domes of solder for pads because the board was hasl'ed. | | Ya' know, instead of rapping on the designers head with my knuckles, I think I'm just gonna ask him if he'll share some of the LSD he was taking when he laid this thing out... | | Anyway, what I'd like to do is give the whole bloody mess back and not touch it. But unfortunately that's not an option. I let my boss know what a mess this thing is, and told him I ain't guarantee'ing diddly. "I know Steve.." he tells me,"But see what you can do" I've had luck on my side and pulled some miracles off before, so I'm gonna try...but I think this time I'm in deep Kimchee... | | Oh, one other little tidbit, they kitted this thing with parts from DigiKey...you know,10-piece strips? So the whole thing has to be handplaced...0402's and all. At least the QFP's and MicroBGA's are in matrix trays and not in plastic bags. | | I am gonna machine place the QFP and MicroBGA's...write a quick program for that...and I plan to "Rube Goldberg" me a little pallet with some plain laminate and carlson contact pins to locate the board onto it. | | But I gotta question for ya'll; will one of you guys build this for me? No? Awwww you're no fun! Just kidding! Seriously, what side would you try and do first? The side with the QFP and 144-ball MicroBGA, or the side with only the 48-ball MicroBGA? I'm thinking the side with the QFP because I don't know what the board is gonna do through the first reflow, may warp on me a little, and I figure I'll start with the side with the QFP and MicroBGA while the board is still flat since I want to able to print that side good...I mean I want to be able to print both sides good, but it'll be easier if I only have to deal with one critical location instead of two if the board curls on me... | | Oh, a little tip about MicroBGA apertures if you ain't already heard this, I get all my MicroBGA apertures made into squares instead of leaving them circles...paste releases better from squares than it does with circles, and gives you a teeny bit more slop factor for placement...the overprinted corners of the square will wick back onto the pads fine during reflow. I normally get a 4-mil thick stencil for 15.7-mil and MicroBGA by the way... | | Sure you don't wanna take this off my hands? | | -Steve "How did I get in this mess?" Gregory- | I would hate to be in your shoes! That looks like head ache city.

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#11733

Re: Hey Guys, you gotta check this out! | 26 April, 1999

| | Hey Guys! | | | | Look what I get to try and do this week! I got handed a cardboard box on Friday afternoon with the parts and 20 of these little jewels! That's both sides of the board by the way... | | | | Whoever laid this out, I'd like to go and do a "Back to the Future" thing on him, you know the scene when George McFly's bullies come up to him and rap on his head with their knuckles and go; "Hello...anybody home in there?!?" | | | | Sheesh! I can't believe I got handed this! As you can see, it's 1.7" X 2.7", and about .039" thick. The QFP is 15.7-mil pitch and those are two microBGA's, a 144-ball, and a 48-ball. | | | | Look at how close to the edges the dude put components, and then on top of that the boneheads had these boards made indivdually! Oh, here's another thing you'll like. The MicroBGA pads are actually filled via's! Nice little domes of solder for pads because the board was hasl'ed. | | | | Ya' know, instead of rapping on the designers head with my knuckles, I think I'm just gonna ask him if he'll share some of the LSD he was taking when he laid this thing out... | | | | Anyway, what I'd like to do is give the whole bloody mess back and not touch it. But unfortunately that's not an option. I let my boss know what a mess this thing is, and told him I ain't guarantee'ing diddly. "I know Steve.." he tells me,"But see what you can do" I've had luck on my side and pulled some miracles off before, so I'm gonna try...but I think this time I'm in deep Kimchee... | | | | Oh, one other little tidbit, they kitted this thing with parts from DigiKey...you know,10-piece strips? So the whole thing has to be handplaced...0402's and all. At least the QFP's and MicroBGA's are in matrix trays and not in plastic bags. | | | | I am gonna machine place the QFP and MicroBGA's...write a quick program for that...and I plan to "Rube Goldberg" me a little pallet with some plain laminate and carlson contact pins to locate the board onto it. | | | | But I gotta question for ya'll; will one of you guys build this for me? No? Awwww you're no fun! Just kidding! Seriously, what side would you try and do first? The side with the QFP and 144-ball MicroBGA, or the side with only the 48-ball MicroBGA? I'm thinking the side with the QFP because I don't know what the board is gonna do through the first reflow, may warp on me a little, and I figure I'll start with the side with the QFP and MicroBGA while the board is still flat since I want to able to print that side good...I mean I want to be able to print both sides good, but it'll be easier if I only have to deal with one critical location instead of two if the board curls on me... | | | | Oh, a little tip about MicroBGA apertures if you ain't already heard this, I get all my MicroBGA apertures made into squares instead of leaving them circles...paste releases better from squares than it does with circles, and gives you a teeny bit more slop factor for placement...the overprinted corners of the square will wick back onto the pads fine during reflow. I normally get a 4-mil thick stencil for 15.7-mil and MicroBGA by the way... | | | | Sure you don't wanna take this off my hands? | | | | -Steve "How did I get in this mess?" Gregory- | | | I would hate to be in your shoes! That looks like head ache city. | Hey, Steve,

If anybody can do it, you can. We all know that. And thanks for the tidbit on square ap's instead of round ones for the uBGA's. I'm filing that in memory for future reference.

I'm wiht you - start with the side that has the QFP and 144-ball uBGA. Dealing with the second side will most likely be torturous, so you're choosing the lesse of two evils.

Keep us posted on the progress of this one. (And will you be washing them in your buck-99 baskets?)

reply »

Justin Medernach

#11734

Re: Hey Guys, you gotta check this out! | 26 April, 1999

| Hey Guys! | | Look what I get to try and do this week! I got handed a cardboard box on Friday afternoon with the parts and 20 of these little jewels! That's both sides of the board by the way... | | Whoever laid this out, I'd like to go and do a "Back to the Future" thing on him, you know the scene when George McFly's bullies come up to him and rap on his head with their knuckles and go; "Hello...anybody home in there?!?" | | Sheesh! I can't believe I got handed this! As you can see, it's 1.7" X 2.7", and about .039" thick. The QFP is 15.7-mil pitch and those are two microBGA's, a 144-ball, and a 48-ball. | | Look at how close to the edges the dude put components, and then on top of that the boneheads had these boards made indivdually! Oh, here's another thing you'll like. The MicroBGA pads are actually filled via's! Nice little domes of solder for pads because the board was hasl'ed. | | Ya' know, instead of rapping on the designers head with my knuckles, I think I'm just gonna ask him if he'll share some of the LSD he was taking when he laid this thing out... | | Anyway, what I'd like to do is give the whole bloody mess back and not touch it. But unfortunately that's not an option. I let my boss know what a mess this thing is, and told him I ain't guarantee'ing diddly. "I know Steve.." he tells me,"But see what you can do" I've had luck on my side and pulled some miracles off before, so I'm gonna try...but I think this time I'm in deep Kimchee... | | Oh, one other little tidbit, they kitted this thing with parts from DigiKey...you know,10-piece strips? So the whole thing has to be handplaced...0402's and all. At least the QFP's and MicroBGA's are in matrix trays and not in plastic bags. | | I am gonna machine place the QFP and MicroBGA's...write a quick program for that...and I plan to "Rube Goldberg" me a little pallet with some plain laminate and carlson contact pins to locate the board onto it. | | But I gotta question for ya'll; will one of you guys build this for me? No? Awwww you're no fun! Just kidding! Seriously, what side would you try and do first? The side with the QFP and 144-ball MicroBGA, or the side with only the 48-ball MicroBGA? I'm thinking the side with the QFP because I don't know what the board is gonna do through the first reflow, may warp on me a little, and I figure I'll start with the side with the QFP and MicroBGA while the board is still flat since I want to able to print that side good...I mean I want to be able to print both sides good, but it'll be easier if I only have to deal with one critical location instead of two if the board curls on me... | | Oh, a little tip about MicroBGA apertures if you ain't already heard this, I get all my MicroBGA apertures made into squares instead of leaving them circles...paste releases better from squares than it does with circles, and gives you a teeny bit more slop factor for placement...the overprinted corners of the square will wick back onto the pads fine during reflow. I normally get a 4-mil thick stencil for 15.7-mil and MicroBGA by the way... | | Sure you don't wanna take this off my hands? | | -Steve "How did I get in this mess?" Gregory- | Steve, You're going the right way. One thing you want to watch though is your profile on this puppy. That .016" QFP is right behind the smaller uBGA. That's gonna cause a thermal problem so you might want to be careful over there. Another problem is going to be coplanarity after you reflow the first time. If the vias are filled. The side that "hangs" on the first pass through reflow might have some solder that "drops" out of the vias. THis would overaccentuate the crowned pads and probably cause one hell of a headache in printing the second side. You might want to wick these guys a little before the second pass through the oven but that's gonna depend on the condition of the pads after the first pass. Also, watch the time it takes on the hand build. We do this crap all the time and you have to make sure the operator can place everything fast enough that the flux doesn't go away. Also, bake these boards before processing them. If you try to go full tilt right off the back, the board mfr. could have boned his process and got some moisture trapped when he filled those vias. That stuff will blow out in process and could cause some serious crap. Good luck with this one. It's certainly a challenge. I'm sure you didn't need me to tell you that.

regards, Justin

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#11735

Re: Hey Guys, you gotta check this out! | 26 April, 1999

| Hey Guys! | | Look what I get to try and do this week! I got handed a cardboard box on Friday afternoon with the parts and 20 of these little jewels! That's both sides of the board by the way... | bla-bla-bla | | Sure you don't wanna take this off my hands? | | -Steve "How did I get in this mess?" Gregory- | Steve: Is bolting a piece of sheet metal over your feeder slots at pick height and either:

1 Two-sided taping the "Digikey strips" in place and teaching them as 1 by X matrix trays OR 2 Dumping the parts from the "Digikey strips" into surf matrix trays, two-sided taping the surfs in place, and teaching them as matrix trays

... and running the pups on your Zeva more work than hand placing? But if you don't have machine time ... Good luck. Dave F

reply »

JohnW

#11736

Re: Hey Guys, you gotta check this out! | 26 April, 1999

| | | Hey Guys! | | | | | | Look what I get to try and do this week! I got handed a cardboard box on Friday afternoon with the parts and 20 of these little jewels! That's both sides of the board by the way... | | | | | | Whoever laid this out, I'd like to go and do a "Back to the Future" thing on him, you know the scene when George McFly's bullies come up to him and rap on his head with their knuckles and go; "Hello...anybody home in there?!?" | | | | | | Sheesh! I can't believe I got handed this! As you can see, it's 1.7" X 2.7", and about .039" thick. The QFP is 15.7-mil pitch and those are two microBGA's, a 144-ball, and a 48-ball. | | | | | | Look at how close to the edges the dude put components, and then on top of that the boneheads had these boards made indivdually! Oh, here's another thing you'll like. The MicroBGA pads are actually filled via's! Nice little domes of solder for pads because the board was hasl'ed. | | | | | | Ya' know, instead of rapping on the designers head with my knuckles, I think I'm just gonna ask him if he'll share some of the LSD he was taking when he laid this thing out... | | | | | | Anyway, what I'd like to do is give the whole bloody mess back and not touch it. But unfortunately that's not an option. I let my boss know what a mess this thing is, and told him I ain't guarantee'ing diddly. "I know Steve.." he tells me,"But see what you can do" I've had luck on my side and pulled some miracles off before, so I'm gonna try...but I think this time I'm in deep Kimchee... | | | | | | Oh, one other little tidbit, they kitted this thing with parts from DigiKey...you know,10-piece strips? So the whole thing has to be handplaced...0402's and all. At least the QFP's and MicroBGA's are in matrix trays and not in plastic bags. | | | | | | I am gonna machine place the QFP and MicroBGA's...write a quick program for that...and I plan to "Rube Goldberg" me a little pallet with some plain laminate and carlson contact pins to locate the board onto it. | | | | | | But I gotta question for ya'll; will one of you guys build this for me? No? Awwww you're no fun! Just kidding! Seriously, what side would you try and do first? The side with the QFP and 144-ball MicroBGA, or the side with only the 48-ball MicroBGA? I'm thinking the side with the QFP because I don't know what the board is gonna do through the first reflow, may warp on me a little, and I figure I'll start with the side with the QFP and MicroBGA while the board is still flat since I want to able to print that side good...I mean I want to be able to print both sides good, but it'll be easier if I only have to deal with one critical location instead of two if the board curls on me... | | | | | | Oh, a little tip about MicroBGA apertures if you ain't already heard this, I get all my MicroBGA apertures made into squares instead of leaving them circles...paste releases better from squares than it does with circles, and gives you a teeny bit more slop factor for placement...the overprinted corners of the square will wick back onto the pads fine during reflow. I normally get a 4-mil thick stencil for 15.7-mil and MicroBGA by the way... | | | | | | Sure you don't wanna take this off my hands? | | | | | | -Steve "How did I get in this mess?" Gregory- | | | | | I would hate to be in your shoes! That looks like head ache city. | | | Hey, Steve, | | If anybody can do it, you can. We all know that. And thanks for the tidbit on square ap's instead of round ones for the uBGA's. I'm filing that in memory for future reference. | | I'm wiht you - start with the side that has the QFP and 144-ball uBGA. Dealing with the second side will most likely be torturous, so you're choosing the lesse of two evils. | | Keep us posted on the progress of this one. (And will you be washing them in your buck-99 baskets?) | Hey steve, U win the award for the biggest laugh of the day!, man I really dont envy u this one, except maybe where u get to beat the designer over the head with a large heavy object, better still , drag em to the floor and make em handplace the 0402's... let us all know the outcome!

reply »

ScottM

#11737

Re: Hey Guys, you gotta check this out! | 26 April, 1999

| Hey Guys! | | Look what I get to try and do this week! I got handed a cardboard box on Friday afternoon with the parts and 20 of these little jewels! That's both sides of the board by the way... | | Whoever laid this out, I'd like to go and do a "Back to the Future" thing on him, you know the scene when George McFly's bullies come up to him and rap on his head with their knuckles and go; "Hello...anybody home in there?!?" | | Sheesh! I can't believe I got handed this! As you can see, it's 1.7" X 2.7", and about .039" thick. The QFP is 15.7-mil pitch and those are two microBGA's, a 144-ball, and a 48-ball. | | Look at how close to the edges the dude put components, and then on top of that the boneheads had these boards made indivdually! Oh, here's another thing you'll like. The MicroBGA pads are actually filled via's! Nice little domes of solder for pads because the board was hasl'ed. | | Ya' know, instead of rapping on the designers head with my knuckles, I think I'm just gonna ask him if he'll share some of the LSD he was taking when he laid this thing out... | | Anyway, what I'd like to do is give the whole bloody mess back and not touch it. But unfortunately that's not an option. I let my boss know what a mess this thing is, and told him I ain't guarantee'ing diddly. "I know Steve.." he tells me,"But see what you can do" I've had luck on my side and pulled some miracles off before, so I'm gonna try...but I think this time I'm in deep Kimchee... | | Oh, one other little tidbit, they kitted this thing with parts from DigiKey...you know,10-piece strips? So the whole thing has to be handplaced...0402's and all. At least the QFP's and MicroBGA's are in matrix trays and not in plastic bags. | | I am gonna machine place the QFP and MicroBGA's...write a quick program for that...and I plan to "Rube Goldberg" me a little pallet with some plain laminate and carlson contact pins to locate the board onto it. | | But I gotta question for ya'll; will one of you guys build this for me? No? Awwww you're no fun! Just kidding! Seriously, what side would you try and do first? The side with the QFP and 144-ball MicroBGA, or the side with only the 48-ball MicroBGA? I'm thinking the side with the QFP because I don't know what the board is gonna do through the first reflow, may warp on me a little, and I figure I'll start with the side with the QFP and MicroBGA while the board is still flat since I want to able to print that side good...I mean I want to be able to print both sides good, but it'll be easier if I only have to deal with one critical location instead of two if the board curls on me... | | Oh, a little tip about MicroBGA apertures if you ain't already heard this, I get all my MicroBGA apertures made into squares instead of leaving them circles...paste releases better from squares than it does with circles, and gives you a teeny bit more slop factor for placement...the overprinted corners of the square will wick back onto the pads fine during reflow. I normally get a 4-mil thick stencil for 15.7-mil and MicroBGA by the way... | | Sure you don't wanna take this off my hands? | | -Steve "How did I get in this mess?" Gregory- | --------------:o Yea, I get that a lot, my main nitch is doing proto work. Give a guy PCB design software and he thinks he 'r' one. I could go on for hours on the "stuff" I've seen.

My operators are now pros at making trays, I've actually built complete lots without the use of a feeder; they're all on double sided sticky tape trays (I use fiberglass) from 0402s to huge inductors (less than 25% of my business comes in reels). I've done single boards as small as 1"x1" on my Mydatas as well, they're a real pain to handle; I've got stacks of special carriers I've routered out of fiberglass and glued supports to just to get them small boards through the oven.

If you're going to hand place, get your hands on some of that Multicore Oasis stuff - lasts a LONG time (I've had it sit for 24 hours printed on a PCB as a test and still worked). You're on the right track on which side to do first...

I've always used squares (diamonds in some cases) on all my BGAs - works wonderfully.

I'd do it but it'll cost ya...

Good luck! Scott

reply »

Dean

#11738

Re: Hey Guys, you gotta check this out! | 26 April, 1999

| | | | Hey Guys! | | | | | | | | Look what I get to try and do this week! I got handed a cardboard box on Friday afternoon with the parts and 20 of these little jewels! That's both sides of the board by the way... | | | | | | | | Whoever laid this out, I'd like to go and do a "Back to the Future" thing on him, you know the scene when George McFly's bullies come up to him and rap on his head with their knuckles and go; "Hello...anybody home in there?!?" | | | | | | | | Sheesh! I can't believe I got handed this! As you can see, it's 1.7" X 2.7", and about .039" thick. The QFP is 15.7-mil pitch and those are two microBGA's, a 144-ball, and a 48-ball. | | | | | | | | Look at how close to the edges the dude put components, and then on top of that the boneheads had these boards made indivdually! Oh, here's another thing you'll like. The MicroBGA pads are actually filled via's! Nice little domes of solder for pads because the board was hasl'ed. | | | | | | | | Ya' know, instead of rapping on the designers head with my knuckles, I think I'm just gonna ask him if he'll share some of the LSD he was taking when he laid this thing out... | | | | | | | | Anyway, what I'd like to do is give the whole bloody mess back and not touch it. But unfortunately that's not an option. I let my boss know what a mess this thing is, and told him I ain't guarantee'ing diddly. "I know Steve.." he tells me,"But see what you can do" I've had luck on my side and pulled some miracles off before, so I'm gonna try...but I think this time I'm in deep Kimchee... | | | | | | | | Oh, one other little tidbit, they kitted this thing with parts from DigiKey...you know,10-piece strips? So the whole thing has to be handplaced...0402's and all. At least the QFP's and MicroBGA's are in matrix trays and not in plastic bags. | | | | | | | | I am gonna machine place the QFP and MicroBGA's...write a quick program for that...and I plan to "Rube Goldberg" me a little pallet with some plain laminate and carlson contact pins to locate the board onto it. | | | | | | | | But I gotta question for ya'll; will one of you guys build this for me? No? Awwww you're no fun! Just kidding! Seriously, what side would you try and do first? The side with the QFP and 144-ball MicroBGA, or the side with only the 48-ball MicroBGA? I'm thinking the side with the QFP because I don't know what the board is gonna do through the first reflow, may warp on me a little, and I figure I'll start with the side with the QFP and MicroBGA while the board is still flat since I want to able to print that side good...I mean I want to be able to print both sides good, but it'll be easier if I only have to deal with one critical location instead of two if the board curls on me... | | | | | | | | Oh, a little tip about MicroBGA apertures if you ain't already heard this, I get all my MicroBGA apertures made into squares instead of leaving them circles...paste releases better from squares than it does with circles, and gives you a teeny bit more slop factor for placement...the overprinted corners of the square will wick back onto the pads fine during reflow. I normally get a 4-mil thick stencil for 15.7-mil and MicroBGA by the way... | | | | | | | | Sure you don't wanna take this off my hands? | | | | | | | | -Steve "How did I get in this mess?" Gregory- | | | | | | | I would hate to be in your shoes! That looks like head ache city. | | | | | Hey, Steve, | | | | If anybody can do it, you can. We all know that. And thanks for the tidbit on square ap's instead of round ones for the uBGA's. I'm filing that in memory for future reference. | | | | I'm wiht you - start with the side that has the QFP and 144-ball uBGA. Dealing with the second side will most likely be torturous, so you're choosing the lesse of two evils. | | | | Keep us posted on the progress of this one. (And will you be washing them in your buck-99 baskets?) | | | Hey steve, | U win the award for the biggest laugh of the day!, man I really dont envy u this one, except maybe where u get to beat the designer over the head with a large heavy object, better still , drag em to the floor and make em handplace the 0402's... | let us all know the outcome! | In addition to torturing the designer (who wouldn't jump on that opportunity) the sales person and quote staff should be shot! How is it that companies who develop products have absoutly no clue what happens on the EMS factory floor???

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