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HASL - again?

Earl Moon

#10947

HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans.

Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet.

Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year.

Boogie,

Moonman

reply »

John Thorup

#10948

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

| Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | Boogie, | | Moonman Please do - I'd love to see it. While we're on HASL - has anyone used a white tin surface coating like "Omicron Immersion White Tin" by Cirtech (?) or dexcoat FST by Dexter? Comments on performance, shelf life, cost, etc would be appreciated. John Thorup|

reply »

Brian

#10949

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

What is the future of HASL with lead-free solders? I have grave misgivings as, even if it works properly (which I'm not too sure about), the alloy will have to match that used in the soldering process, or nearly so. No use using a Bi-containing HASL if the solder alloy is Sn-Ag or similar (or vice versa).

Also, if higher temp MP alloys are used, it's going to be fun removing the adsorbed flux residues. ??????????

| Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | Boogie, | | Moonman |

reply »

Jason Gregory

#10950

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

| Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | Boogie, | | Moonman | Man, you guys kill me.......with your unlimited wealth of knowledge(referring to the string entitled: bare board problem)!! I would like to consider an alternative coating for surface of our boards. You guys mention different brd materials and coatings in timeframes when my friends and I were thinking about bicycles, scale models and model rocketry.We manufacture RF products where I work, so frequency deviations are an issue. We use standard thickness FR4 for some applications and Taconic .018" thick boards for other apps. I have noticed something in the short time I've been here, though. The Taconic boards seem to have no coating at all. They're definitely not HASL. They may be coated with something, but I'm not sure. Our FR4 boards are HASL and the "doming" does wreak some havoc with shorts on the FP stuff. We usually don't go tighter than 20 mil. BGA's are on the horizon...protos have been built successfully. Anyway, enough with my ramblings on. Any info concerning technical papers or such on alternatives that I can be directed to would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work.

Jason Gregory Process Tech. Tadiran Microwave Networks Stafford, Tx. (281)263-6671 jasong@microwavenetworks.com

reply »

Earl Moon

#10951

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

| | Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | | | Boogie, | | | | Moonman | | | Man, you guys kill me.......with your unlimited wealth of knowledge(referring to the string entitled: bare board problem)!! I would like to consider an alternative coating for surface of our boards. You guys mention different brd materials and coatings in timeframes when my friends and I were thinking about bicycles, scale models and model rocketry.We manufacture RF products where I work, so frequency deviations are an issue. We use standard thickness FR4 for some applications and Taconic .018" thick boards for other apps. I have noticed something in the short time I've been here, though. The Taconic boards seem to have no coating at all. They're definitely not HASL. They may be coated with something, but I'm not sure. Our FR4 boards are HASL and the "doming" does wreak some havoc with shorts on the FP stuff. We usually don't go tighter than 20 mil. BGA's are on the horizon...protos have been built successfully. Anyway, enough with my ramblings on. Any info concerning technical papers or such on alternatives that I can be directed to would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work. | | Jason Gregory | Process Tech. | Tadiran Microwave Networks | Stafford, Tx. (281)263-6671 | jasong@microwavenetworks.com | Yeah, ain't it a bitch. I grew up modifying and racing motorcycles. I also modified my body several times doing that as well as jumping out of airplanes more than 700 times. Amazing how the hell someone gets into this business.

See my latest posting just above this one for some sketchy info about alternative finishes. I have spent, or wasted, many other years in the R/F world and that's why I went to electroless "flash" gold three years ago. It really delights those "black magic" super high speed types. Now, if we could only get them all to do away with vias in pads. I succeed about 30% of the time when working with them though the evidence is clear they're not at all needed.

Go for it,

Earl Moon

reply »

John Thorup

#10952

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

| | Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | | | Boogie, | | | | Moonman | | | Man, you guys kill me.......with your unlimited wealth of knowledge(referring to the string entitled: bare board problem)!! I would like to consider an alternative coating for surface of our boards. You guys mention different brd materials and coatings in timeframes when my friends and I were thinking about bicycles, scale models and model rocketry.We manufacture RF products where I work, so frequency deviations are an issue. We use standard thickness FR4 for some applications and Taconic .018" thick boards for other apps. I have noticed something in the short time I've been here, though. The Taconic boards seem to have no coating at all. They're definitely not HASL. They may be coated with something, but I'm not sure. Our FR4 boards are HASL and the "doming" does wreak some havoc with shorts on the FP stuff. We usually don't go tighter than 20 mil. BGA's are on the horizon...protos have been built successfully. Anyway, enough with my ramblings on. Any info concerning technical papers or such on alternatives that I can be directed to would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work. | | Jason Gregory | Process Tech. | Tadiran Microwave Networks | Stafford, Tx. (281)263-6671 | jasong@microwavenetworks.com | hey - I don't feel old. Anyway, your Taconic board likely has an OSP coating (organic solderability preservative) to keep the copper from oxidizing before you solder it. See the Enthone web site at www.enthone-omi.com and a good article in May 1999 Circuits Assembly magazine. I have tried the Enthone product in tests but decided not to use it. It worked well with the Paste I use for SMT but poorly with the weak VOC free flux I use in the wave. Moonman - we should get a string going about the alternatives to being HASLed.

reply »

Earl Moon

#10953

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

| | Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | | | Boogie, | | | | Moonman | Please do - I'd love to see it. While we're on HASL - has anyone used a white tin surface coating like "Omicron Immersion White Tin" by Cirtech (?) or dexcoat FST by Dexter? Comments on performance, shelf life, cost, etc would be appreciated. | John Thorup| | | I'll send it this weekend as it is a little long (about a meg) due to pretty dirty pictures. Also, see the posting atop this for limited info about white tin. Again, tin anything can have problems (what doesn't?) primarily as fairly rapid oxidation.

Also, I would also say to Brian (I forgot to comment) that HASL would go away with most other metallic finishes. There would be no need for it if electroless or electroplating processes were used.

Earl Moon

reply »

Earl Moon

#10954

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

| | | Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | | | | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | | | | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | | | | | Boogie, | | | | | | Moonman | | | | | Man, you guys kill me.......with your unlimited wealth of knowledge(referring to the string entitled: bare board problem)!! I would like to consider an alternative coating for surface of our boards. You guys mention different brd materials and coatings in timeframes when my friends and I were thinking about bicycles, scale models and model rocketry.We manufacture RF products where I work, so frequency deviations are an issue. We use standard thickness FR4 for some applications and Taconic .018" thick boards for other apps. I have noticed something in the short time I've been here, though. The Taconic boards seem to have no coating at all. They're definitely not HASL. They may be coated with something, but I'm not sure. Our FR4 boards are HASL and the "doming" does wreak some havoc with shorts on the FP stuff. We usually don't go tighter than 20 mil. BGA's are on the horizon...protos have been built successfully. Anyway, enough with my ramblings on. Any info concerning technical papers or such on alternatives that I can be directed to would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work. | | | | Jason Gregory | | Process Tech. | | Tadiran Microwave Networks | | Stafford, Tx. (281)263-6671 | | jasong@microwavenetworks.com | | | hey - I don't feel old. Anyway, your Taconic board likely has an OSP coating (organic solderability preservative) to keep the copper from oxidizing before you solder it. See the Enthone web site at www.enthone-omi.com and a good article in May 1999 Circuits Assembly magazine. I have tried the Enthone product in tests but decided not to use it. It worked well with the Paste I use for SMT but poorly with the weak VOC free flux I use in the wave. Moonman - we should get a string going about the alternatives to being HASLed. | Jason,

The first time we saw OCC/OSP in our operation, no one noticed. It just looked a little off color from gold. It looks a whole lot different, but who would have guessed. It looks a whole lot different than HASL. It performs pretty well for our two paste types (one no clean, but not VOC free, and the other RMA). Just don't mis-print paste more than once. We do.

String hell. Look what you've done. You just started one. But for Dave F., we need a solder guru and more support for dictionary justice as facts from the horses mouth. You know, like an expert in soldering stuff like intermetallics and all. Where's the cross over from IPC. Where's Englemeir when you need him. Oh, yeah writing more damn books and such plus playing golf on his luxurious Florida estate. What do they think we are?

We ain't damn rookies. Collectively, we know more about managing processes than anyone on the planet. Have I used up that phrase? Forgive, or not.

Go,

Moonman

reply »

Scott Cook

#10955

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

| | Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | | | Boogie, | | | | Moonman | | | Man, you guys kill me.......with your unlimited wealth of knowledge(referring to the string entitled: bare board problem)!! I would like to consider an alternative coating for surface of our boards. You guys mention different brd materials and coatings in timeframes when my friends and I were thinking about bicycles, scale models and model rocketry.We manufacture RF products where I work, so frequency deviations are an issue. We use standard thickness FR4 for some applications and Taconic .018" thick boards for other apps. I have noticed something in the short time I've been here, though. The Taconic boards seem to have no coating at all. They're definitely not HASL. They may be coated with something, but I'm not sure. Our FR4 boards are HASL and the "doming" does wreak some havoc with shorts on the FP stuff. We usually don't go tighter than 20 mil. BGA's are on the horizon...protos have been built successfully. Anyway, enough with my ramblings on. Any info concerning technical papers or such on alternatives that I can be directed to would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work. | | Jason Gregory | Process Tech. | Tadiran Microwave Networks | Stafford, Tx. (281)263-6671 | jasong@microwavenetworks.com | Jason,

As someone who just jumped out of mfg. into sales after 26 years (and left a sister Tadiran company in Tallahassee, FL, (BTW--I remember when Tadiran bought you not too long ago), I can relate. As you may know, my former employer is an RF shop, too; worked in the 50 Hz to 5 Gig ranges.

Good board mat'ls in these freq's are FR4, teflon, polyamid.

Platings are touchy; most firms don't capture the rework costs associated with dealing with crap board houses well enough to be able to play that back to the beancounters. Ya gotta deal with quality houses!!!!! And flat pads and good incoming components are where you get yields. Drive it back to the vendor, I say!!!!

You see, purchasing has a different agenda than us mfg. pukes do.....they have COST as a major driver. They don't CARE about the pain in mfg caused by the bozos in the crap board houses. They just wanna get the mat'l in the door. So, teach them. Use patience. Give them hard data. Capture issues and costs well; yields, ICT and funct. failures, solderability, and cycle time. DOLLARS being wrapped around every board you build...... Throw it together into a presentation, and get your beancounters and purchasing guys into that meeting! You can win the ever present vendor selection war! You just have to approach it from a business perspective. Always remember, the bottom line guys want to see ROI and P&L. Show them loss, show them an avenue to reduce loss with a decent ROI. They ALWAYS bite.

Same rule for buying new generation cap equipment......

MHO

Scott Cook scook@unicam.com

reply »

Jason Gregory

#10956

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

| | | | Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | | | | | | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | | | | | | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | | | | | | | Boogie, | | | | | | | | Moonman | | | | | | | Man, you guys kill me.......with your unlimited wealth of knowledge(referring to the string entitled: bare board problem)!! I would like to consider an alternative coating for surface of our boards. You guys mention different brd materials and coatings in timeframes when my friends and I were thinking about bicycles, scale models and model rocketry.We manufacture RF products where I work, so frequency deviations are an issue. We use standard thickness FR4 for some applications and Taconic .018" thick boards for other apps. I have noticed something in the short time I've been here, though. The Taconic boards seem to have no coating at all. They're definitely not HASL. They may be coated with something, but I'm not sure. Our FR4 boards are HASL and the "doming" does wreak some havoc with shorts on the FP stuff. We usually don't go tighter than 20 mil. BGA's are on the horizon...protos have been built successfully. Anyway, enough with my ramblings on. Any info concerning technical papers or such on alternatives that I can be directed to would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work. | | | | | | Jason Gregory | | | Process Tech. | | | Tadiran Microwave Networks | | | Stafford, Tx. (281)263-6671 | | | jasong@microwavenetworks.com | | | | | hey - I don't feel old. Anyway, your Taconic board likely has an OSP coating (organic solderability preservative) to keep the copper from oxidizing before you solder it. See the Enthone web site at www.enthone-omi.com and a good article in May 1999 Circuits Assembly magazine. I have tried the Enthone product in tests but decided not to use it. It worked well with the Paste I use for SMT but poorly with the weak VOC free flux I use in the wave. Moonman - we should get a string going about the alternatives to being HASLed. | | | Jason, | | The first time we saw OCC/OSP in our operation, no one noticed. It just looked a little off color from gold. It looks a whole lot different, but who would have guessed. It looks a whole lot different than HASL. It performs pretty well for our two paste types (one no clean, but not VOC free, and the other RMA). Just don't mis-print paste more than once. We do. | | String hell. Look what you've done. You just started one. But for Dave F., we need a solder guru and more support for dictionary justice as facts from the horses mouth. You know, like an expert in soldering stuff like intermetallics and all. Where's the cross over from IPC. Where's Englemeir when you need him. Oh, yeah writing more damn books and such plus playing golf on his luxurious Florida estate. What do they think we are? | | We ain't damn rookies. Collectively, we know more about managing processes than anyone on the planet. Have I used up that phrase? Forgive, or not. | | Go, | | Moonman | So far, I've found out the coating is immersion tin(with non-plated areas as well-RF areas). I am trying to get the decision-makers here to let me get some of the same boards with different coatings to test. Like maybe 2 ea. of OSP, electroless, maybe some new technology. So tell me, O Great Ones, what are some viable alternatives? Without making my company go broke. Thanks in advance.

reply »

Jason Gregory

#10957

Re: HASL - again? | 18 June, 1999

| | | | | Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | | | | | | | | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | | | | | | | | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | | | | | | | | | Boogie, | | | | | | | | | | Moonman | | | | | | | | | Man, you guys kill me.......with your unlimited wealth of knowledge(referring to the string entitled: bare board problem)!! I would like to consider an alternative coating for surface of our boards. You guys mention different brd materials and coatings in timeframes when my friends and I were thinking about bicycles, scale models and model rocketry.We manufacture RF products where I work, so frequency deviations are an issue. We use standard thickness FR4 for some applications and Taconic .018" thick boards for other apps. I have noticed something in the short time I've been here, though. The Taconic boards seem to have no coating at all. They're definitely not HASL. They may be coated with something, but I'm not sure. Our FR4 boards are HASL and the "doming" does wreak some havoc with shorts on the FP stuff. We usually don't go tighter than 20 mil. BGA's are on the horizon...protos have been built successfully. Anyway, enough with my ramblings on. Any info concerning technical papers or such on alternatives that I can be directed to would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work. | | | | | | | | Jason Gregory | | | | Process Tech. | | | | Tadiran Microwave Networks | | | | Stafford, Tx. (281)263-6671 | | | | jasong@microwavenetworks.com | | | | | | | hey - I don't feel old. Anyway, your Taconic board likely has an OSP coating (organic solderability preservative) to keep the copper from oxidizing before you solder it. See the Enthone web site at www.enthone-omi.com and a good article in May 1999 Circuits Assembly magazine. I have tried the Enthone product in tests but decided not to use it. It worked well with the Paste I use for SMT but poorly with the weak VOC free flux I use in the wave. Moonman - we should get a string going about the alternatives to being HASLed. | | | | | Jason, | | | | The first time we saw OCC/OSP in our operation, no one noticed. It just looked a little off color from gold. It looks a whole lot different, but who would have guessed. It looks a whole lot different than HASL. It performs pretty well for our two paste types (one no clean, but not VOC free, and the other RMA). Just don't mis-print paste more than once. We do. | | | | String hell. Look what you've done. You just started one. But for Dave F., we need a solder guru and more support for dictionary justice as facts from the horses mouth. You know, like an expert in soldering stuff like intermetallics and all. Where's the cross over from IPC. Where's Englemeir when you need him. Oh, yeah writing more damn books and such plus playing golf on his luxurious Florida estate. What do they think we are? | | | | We ain't damn rookies. Collectively, we know more about managing processes than anyone on the planet. Have I used up that phrase? Forgive, or not. | | | | Go, | | | | Moonman | | | So far, I've found out the coating is immersion tin(with non-plated areas as well-RF areas). I am trying to get the decision-makers here to let me get some of the same boards with different coatings to test. Like maybe 2 ea. of OSP, electroless, maybe some new technology. So tell me, O Great Ones, what are some viable alternatives? Without making my company go broke. Thanks in advance. | | Oh, BTW, what ahppened to Justin? Still around??

reply »

Christopher Cross

#10958

Re: HASL - again? | 21 June, 1999

| | Now don't everyone jump on this at once, but it seems time for me to send out copies of my not even close to being dated copy of an article about HASL. Though it was published in 1992, in Printed Circuit Fabrication Magazine, and it got rave reviews (3 exactly), it still holds the attention of many of my ad or is abhoring fans. | | | | Maybe, if the response is strong enough, I will submit is an article in our new SMT thing magazine of the internet. | | | | Enjoy my HASLing you. Some of you remember the string last year. | | | | Boogie, | | | | Moonman | Please do - I'd love to see it. While we're on HASL - has anyone used a white tin surface coating like "Omicron Immersion White Tin" by Cirtech (?) or dexcoat FST by Dexter? Comments on performance, shelf life, cost, etc would be appreciated. | John Thorup| | | We are in the process of evaluating both of these board finishes. Our original venture into this was a disaster. The board vendor stripped the HASL finish off two boards for evaluation( why in the hell anyone would want you to evaluate their product and do this type of thing remains a mystery to me!) and then applied the immersion tin process. DONT LET THEM DO THIS TO YOU!!!! The thickness of the resulting copper pad is too thin and during reflow the pads actually burned,discolored and would not solder to the point that we had to scrap them. Our next venture was much more successful. this time boards were manufactured properly. I didn't let they assemblers know there was anything different with the boards and they turned out great. The cost for this is the same as for the HASL.

The vendor we used for the Dexter FST did it right the first time building two prototype that turned out fine again we noticed no difference in manufacturing processes. We attempted some rework - changing ICs and some passive to see how it handled that process and again were pleased with the results. We then did a small production run again without notifying the assy group or the test group and the results were great, soldered, reworked and cleaned up fine - 1 solder short on a PLCC. Again cost was the same as for the HASL. We did have these boards sitting around in house for about 2 months and had no problems with oxidation, etc. I am concerned about the OSP that the Dexter process puts on the board - just because I don't have any info on it yet and our test run was only 18 brds - 3 pallets. If anyone has this info please let me know - I'm sure it will be another week before my vendor gets it to me.

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