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SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


Carol Zhang

#10746

Sub-contractor selection | 6 July, 1999

We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? Thank you for any advice

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#10747

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 6 July, 1999

| We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | Thank you for any advice | Look at the people who actually do the work. If they look happy there is a great chance that they do a good job. Beside the usual things to look at in an audit that�s my special piont of focus and it really paid back (at least here in Germany).

Wolfgang Busko

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K

#10748

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 6 July, 1999

| We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | Thank you for any advice | Wolfgang has a good point.....I would talk to the people who work on the product & find out how they keep their processes in control. Also, since you are probably interested in getting a quality product on time......ask how they measure/monitor quality & on-time delivery & how they respond to problems with either.

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JohnW

#10749

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 6 July, 1999

| | We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | | Thank you for any advice | | | Wolfgang has a good point.....I would talk to the people who work on the product & find out how they keep their processes in control. Also, since you are probably interested in getting a quality product on time......ask how they measure/monitor quality & on-time delivery & how they respond to problems with either. | | | Carol,

At the risk of shooting myself in the fott ( yep I work for one of thos subcontractors) there are load's of trick's you can do to get a 'true' idea of how good they are. Wofgang and kelly are dead right if the people are happy chances are they are enjoying their work and really take pride in it so a good job is done..but then it could just as well be nervous laughter or the start of insanity!!!! (i'm not saying which one is me) Taking to quality manager's and directors or production manager's really wont give you a true picture, you'll only ever get told the good stuff, line tour's of the shop are good..it the folk on the shop floor look happy then it really is promoising since they are the one's doing the real work, not us engineers or those manager type folk. Ask their opinion on what run's good and bad and compare that to your boards, I know one customer took a picture of their board with them and showed it to the shopflorr folk's to see what they thought..now that's some smart thinking. Look at how tidy the place is, don't let yourself be guided or planned by the people your visiting for audit's..it's your audit you control it..never walk down the line the subcontractor want's you to..they've made sure it's perfect. Ask about RFT and PPM's, ask what they're quality gates are SM-T Wave and so on, check out their good's in andthe control's there..ask an operator or storeman about the rules to see if they know. I think the best ( or the worst depending on which end your on) I've ever seen is the one DELL carries out..man it's really brutal..I guess the best advice is lern the key phrase..."so prove it to me!" The last peice of advice...never ever just send materials or managers..make sure you have some technical folk's around, if you need to hire a consultant for a couple of day's it would be worth your money!

JohnW | |

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John Thorup

#10750

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 6 July, 1999

| | We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | | Thank you for any advice | | | Wolfgang has a good point.....I would talk to the people who work on the product & find out how they keep their processes in control. Also, since you are probably interested in getting a quality product on time......ask how they measure/monitor quality & on-time delivery & how they respond to problems with either. | |Yes - so many of the quality manuals are just pretty pictures - ask questions - see if the operators really understand their process and what they are controlling. See if any corrective action really results from the numbers collected (assuming that they are). Ask about training. Are the important operators long term employees? How many temps? Are the execs sales or technical? Talk to their references. Look at the shop. Is it clean and well organized? Do the machines look well maintained. If your company is new to manufacturing or SMT, is the shop capable of helping you with a design/manufacturability review? good luck John Thorup | | |

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Earl Moon

#10751

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 6 July, 1999

| | | We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | | | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | | | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | | | Thank you for any advice | | | | | Wolfgang has a good point.....I would talk to the people who work on the product & find out how they keep their processes in control. Also, since you are probably interested in getting a quality product on time......ask how they measure/monitor quality & on-time delivery & how they respond to problems with either. | | | | | | Carol, | | At the risk of shooting myself in the fott ( yep I work for one of thos subcontractors) there are load's of trick's you can do to get a 'true' idea of how good they are. | Wofgang and kelly are dead right if the people are happy chances are they are enjoying their work and really take pride in it so a good job is done..but then it could just as well be nervous laughter or the start of insanity!!!! (i'm not saying which one is me) | Taking to quality manager's and directors or production manager's really wont give you a true picture, you'll only ever get told the good stuff, line tour's of the shop are good..it the folk on the shop floor look happy then it really is promoising since they are the one's doing the real work, not us engineers or those manager type folk. Ask their opinion on what run's good and bad and compare that to your boards, I know one customer took a picture of their board with them and showed it to the shopflorr folk's to see what they thought..now that's some smart thinking. | Look at how tidy the place is, don't let yourself be guided or planned by the people your visiting for audit's..it's your audit you control it..never walk down the line the subcontractor want's you to..they've made sure it's perfect. | Ask about RFT and PPM's, ask what they're quality gates are SM-T Wave and so on, check out their good's in andthe control's there..ask an operator or storeman about the rules to see if they know. | I think the best ( or the worst depending on which end your on) I've ever seen is the one DELL carries out..man it's really brutal..I guess the best advice is lern the key phrase..."so prove it to me!" | The last peice of advice...never ever just send materials or managers..make sure you have some technical folk's around, if you need to hire a consultant for a couple of day's it would be worth your money! | | JohnW | | | | | | Are the processes being managed or the results? ISO says prove it too. Upon the ISO system foundation, a prevent defect program should have been built. Some actually have such a program. Others are catching on quick - Lone Ranger.

Earl Moon

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Earl Moon

#10752

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 6 July, 1999

| We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | Thank you for any advice | Carol,

Someone below mentioned consultant. I'm one and very cheap, but not very good. Hell, I can't even help myself, but sometimes give good advice, according to me.

Boards and assemblies are complex. If you take each separating them into understandable processes, sub process, and activities, it becomes much easier.

You'll find the right answer. Hopefully, you'll find the right shop.

Enjoy,

Moonman

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#10753

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 7 July, 1999

| We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | Thank you for any advice | Hey, there�s already a lot of advice. Another thing is, to check data you provide and data the subcontractor expects. It also helps if people who are to communicate in the later process know each other and talk the same language ( in technical terms ) It�s also wise to agree in the standards you expect the results to meet before the work is done and not when the cooking is already burnt. The IPC-A-610 is probably the most useful device for this. These are just facts we had to deal with a lot and we had some kind of bad experience by just listening to great promises managers and salesrepresentatives gave. We are still learning and things are improving and sometimes it�s not easy to convince our own management that it�s a twoway road to good partnership. Take their problems as serious as you want yours to be dealt with.

I hope it�s not to much with the "Zeigefinger" (don�t know in english)

Wolfgang

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JohnW

#10754

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 7 July, 1999

| | We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | | Thank you for any advice | | | Carol, | | Someone below mentioned consultant. I'm one and very cheap, but not very good. Hell, I can't even help myself, but sometimes give good advice, according to me. | | Boards and assemblies are complex. If you take each separating them into understandable processes, sub process, and activities, it becomes much easier. | | You'll find the right answer. Hopefully, you'll find the right shop. | | Enjoy, | | Moonman | Carol,

Moonman is just being bashfull and shy, just wait till you read some of his articles in the SMT Express, then you'll believe me.

Some new start companies, hell even one's that have been going a long time but never been near the world of subcontract can be fooled by managers and quick talking sales folk's. It's important (I think) to have someone you know will wade through the bull and really get the info you need.

John Watt

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Dreamsniper

#10755

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 7 July, 1999

| | | | We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | | | | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | | | | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | | | | Thank you for any advice | | | | | | | Wolfgang has a good point.....I would talk to the people who work on the product & find out how they keep their processes in control. Also, since you are probably interested in getting a quality product on time......ask how they measure/monitor quality & on-time delivery & how they respond to problems with either. | | | | | | | | | Carol, | | | | At the risk of shooting myself in the fott ( yep I work for one of thos subcontractors) there are load's of trick's you can do to get a 'true' idea of how good they are. | | Wofgang and kelly are dead right if the people are happy chances are they are enjoying their work and really take pride in it so a good job is done..but then it could just as well be nervous laughter or the start of insanity!!!! (i'm not saying which one is me) | | Taking to quality manager's and directors or production manager's really wont give you a true picture, you'll only ever get told the good stuff, line tour's of the shop are good..it the folk on the shop floor look happy then it really is promoising since they are the one's doing the real work, not us engineers or those manager type folk. Ask their opinion on what run's good and bad and compare that to your boards, I know one customer took a picture of their board with them and showed it to the shopflorr folk's to see what they thought..now that's some smart thinking. | | Look at how tidy the place is, don't let yourself be guided or planned by the people your visiting for audit's..it's your audit you control it..never walk down the line the subcontractor want's you to..they've made sure it's perfect. | | Ask about RFT and PPM's, ask what they're quality gates are SM-T Wave and so on, check out their good's in andthe control's there..ask an operator or storeman about the rules to see if they know. | | I think the best ( or the worst depending on which end your on) I've ever seen is the one DELL carries out..man it's really brutal..I guess the best advice is lern the key phrase..."so prove it to me!" | | The last peice of advice...never ever just send materials or managers..make sure you have some technical folk's around, if you need to hire a consultant for a couple of day's it would be worth your money! | | | | JohnW | | | | | | | | | | | Are the processes being managed or the results? ISO says prove it too. Upon the ISO system foundation, a prevent defect program should have been built. Some actually have such a program. Others are catching on quick - Lone Ranger. | | Earl Moon |

Few important things you need to consider... machines, process, quality, turn-around time, maintenance program of the company, ppm's, dpm's, ISO certified and the Costs. also try to look on this...who are their customers.

hope this would help!

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#10756

Re: Sub-contractor selection | 7 July, 1999

| | We are looking for some subcontractors to do surface mount | | technology boards for us. Is there anything I should pay specific | | attention when I visit the subcontractor's site? | | Thank you for any advice | | | Hey, there�s already a lot of advice. | Another thing is, to check data you provide and data the subcontractor expects. | It also helps if people who are to communicate in the later process know each other and talk the same language ( in technical terms ) | It�s also wise to agree in the standards you expect the results to meet before the work is done and not when the cooking is already burnt. The IPC-A-610 is probably the most useful device for this. | These are just facts we had to deal with a lot and we had some kind of bad experience by just listening to great promises managers and salesrepresentatives gave. | We are still learning and things are improving and sometimes it�s not easy to convince our own management that it�s a twoway road to good partnership. Take their problems as serious as you want yours to be dealt with. | | I hope it�s not to much with the "Zeigefinger" (don�t know in english) | | Wolfgang | Wolfy: Der "Zeigefinger" is your index finger (next to the thumb). So maybe when one zeigefingers; they preach, lecture, or get up on a soap box.

If so, any of those are perfectly acceptable.

Ta

Dave F

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