Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


Mohammed Saad

#9477

water soluable or no clean flux? | 20 September, 1999

Hi all,

We have a little discussion here about the suitable flux for a certain process, as all of us are beginners we need your advice.

We are producing VGA cards and mother boards for PC's all components to be wave soldered are TH, the SMD is done by reflow in a previous step. We have a medium size wave soldering M/C, heated length is about 130-150 cm with foam fluxer. My colleague -who trained in Taiwan- say that the water Soluable flux is the most suitable flux with this machine, and for this product. I see that the No-clean flux is the most suitable.

Is there any one who produces this product can help us? What do you all think?

Mohamed

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#9478

Re: water soluable or no clean flux? | 20 September, 1999

| Hi all, | | We have a little discussion here about the suitable flux for a certain process, as all of us are beginners we need your advice. | | We are producing VGA cards and mother boards for PC's all components to be wave soldered are TH, the SMD is done by reflow in a previous step. | We have a medium size wave soldering M/C, heated length is about 130-150 cm with foam fluxer. | My colleague -who trained in Taiwan- say that the water Soluable flux is the most suitable flux with this machine, and for this product. | I see that the No-clean flux is the most suitable. | | Is there any one who produces this product can help us? | What do you all think? | | Mohamed | | Hi Mohamed, what kinda flux your are using normally depends on the requirements of either yourself or your customer. If a noclean process is wanted than use noclean flux, if the boards are to be washed anyway than an adequate flux for your cleaning process is required. If you have the choice why not use the noclean process, gives you less handling, less equipment to buy or to use and saves time. For your wavesolder machine there shouldn�t be any difference, may some slight adjustments in preheat, speed ( get the advice from your flux supplier). I have worked with noclean flux over years with a similar machine and there were no problems at all. By the way, what kind of paste do you use in reflow ?

good luck Wolfgang

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Brian

#9479

Re: water soluable or no clean flux? | 20 September, 1999

| Hi all, | | We have a little discussion here about the suitable flux for a certain process, as all of us are beginners we need your advice. | | We are producing VGA cards and mother boards for PC's all components to be wave soldered are TH, the SMD is done by reflow in a previous step. | We have a medium size wave soldering M/C, heated length is about 130-150 cm with foam fluxer. | My colleague -who trained in Taiwan- say that the water Soluable flux is the most suitable flux with this machine, and for this product. | I see that the No-clean flux is the most suitable. | | Is there any one who produces this product can help us? | What do you all think? | | Mohamed | | Mohamed

Both of you are right. I think you may get a better feel if you read the page from the link below.

Briefly, if your components and PCBs are all very solderable, the most economical solution for you will certainly be "no-clean", but you must qualify the choice of flux/paste very carefully, indeed. Many products may become quite lossy at the high clock-speeds of today's boards, causing spurious signals in neighbouring tracks. If you have any controlled characteristic impedances, then be doubly careful. The best "no-clean" products for you would be the least active ones, making soldering a little tricky, especially if the components are not perfectly solderable.

On the other hand, water-soluble products must be attached to the proviso that you MUST clean and dry the boards perfectly (and provably so), even under tightly spaced SM components. This is not a very cheap operation, but you can be sure that your soldering will be as easy as possible and that you should have no problems regarding clock speeds or Zo. Again, process qualification is a must.

In other words, it is a compromise, and you are the only persons who can make the decision, or an independent consultant who can visit your plant and see your processes. By browsing my site, you will find a lot on cleaning WS fluxes, as well, and on consultants.

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#9480

Re: water soluable or no clean flux? | 20 September, 1999

| Hi all, | | We have a little discussion here about the suitable flux for a certain process, as all of us are beginners we need your advice. | | We are producing VGA cards and mother boards for PC's all components to be wave soldered are TH, the SMD is done by reflow in a previous step. | We have a medium size wave soldering M/C, heated length is about 130-150 cm with foam fluxer. | My colleague -who trained in Taiwan- say that the water Soluable flux is the most suitable flux with this machine, and for this product. | I see that the No-clean flux is the most suitable. | | Is there any one who produces this product can help us? | What do you all think? | | Mohamed | | Mohamed: Both Brian and Wolfgang have done an admirable job of answering one part of your two part question ... the part relating to which flux is appropriate for you product. I prefer the low road and will attempt to answer the other part of your question ... which flux are we supposed to be using with this wave solder machine?

Hopefullly I can keep it as broad and non-specific as the answers to the first part that you are still shaking your head. Just kidding ... gesh ;-)

Foam fluxers do a better job of foaming with mid to high solid content fluxes than low solid content fluxes. So it's up to you to select a flux with a solid content matches-up well with your fluxer. Cause if you don't, you'll be over at Walmart buying paint brushes. HaHaHa Anyhow, generally:

* Water soluable fluxes have mid to high solid content. * No-Clean fluxes have low to mid solid content. The higher the solid content no-clean flux, the more ugly, hopefully benign crud that'll be on the surface of your board when you send it to your customer.

Your flux and equipment suppliers can give specific advise on how well you machine matches with the solid content of specific flux types.

In a modern world, the alternative to your foam fluxer for low solid content fluxes is a spray fluxer. Read an article (in the SMTnet library) on spray fluxers our friend Chrys wrote. (it's sad she is no longer with us, because she would make a valuable cintribuion to this discussion, but alas.)

Moving on, in a primative world, the alternative to a foam fluxer is a wave fluxer. If you find yourself in that more primative world, try and get your colleague to be the one recognized by your boss as the maven of wave solder fluxing.

Continuing with that last through, it looks like you and your colleague provide a good balance of backgrounds to help each other grow and assemble good products for your company. (So long as you don't kill each other) ;-0

Ta

Dave F

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Earl Moon

#9481

Re: water soluable or no clean flux? | 20 September, 1999

| | Hi all, | | | | We have a little discussion here about the suitable flux for a certain process, as all of us are beginners we need your advice. | | | | We are producing VGA cards and mother boards for PC's all components to be wave soldered are TH, the SMD is done by reflow in a previous step. | | We have a medium size wave soldering M/C, heated length is about 130-150 cm with foam fluxer. | | My colleague -who trained in Taiwan- say that the water Soluable flux is the most suitable flux with this machine, and for this product. | | I see that the No-clean flux is the most suitable. | | | | Is there any one who produces this product can help us? | | What do you all think? | | | | Mohamed | | | | | Mohamed: Both Brian and Wolfgang have done an admirable job of answering one part of your two part question ... the part relating to which flux is appropriate for you product. I prefer the low road and will attempt to answer the other part of your question ... which flux are we supposed to be using with this wave solder machine? | | Hopefullly I can keep it as broad and non-specific as the answers to the first part that you are still shaking your head. Just kidding ... gesh ;-) | | Foam fluxers do a better job of foaming with mid to high solid content fluxes than low solid content fluxes. So it's up to you to select a flux with a solid content matches-up well with your fluxer. Cause if you don't, you'll be over at Walmart buying paint brushes. HaHaHa Anyhow, generally: | | * Water soluable fluxes have mid to high solid content. | * No-Clean fluxes have low to mid solid content. The higher the solid content no-clean flux, the more ugly, hopefully benign crud that'll be on the surface of your board when you send it to your customer. | | Your flux and equipment suppliers can give specific advise on how well you machine matches with the solid content of specific flux types. | | In a modern world, the alternative to your foam fluxer for low solid content fluxes is a spray fluxer. Read an article (in the SMTnet library) on spray fluxers our friend Chrys wrote. (it's sad she is no longer with us, because she would make a valuable cintribuion to this discussion, but alas.) | | Moving on, in a primative world, the alternative to a foam fluxer is a wave fluxer. If you find yourself in that more primative world, try and get your colleague to be the one recognized by your boss as the maven of wave solder fluxing. | | Continuing with that last through, it looks like you and your colleague provide a good balance of backgrounds to help each other grow and assemble good products for your company. (So long as you don't kill each other) ;-0 | | Ta | | Dave F | I agree with all said. I use ultrasonic spray fluxers with most no-cleans as Dave suggested. No need to comment farther but what on earth happened to Chrys?

Earl Moon

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#9482

Re: water soluable or no clean flux? | 20 September, 1999

| | | Hi all, | | | | | | We have a little discussion here about the suitable flux for a certain process, as all of us are beginners we need your advice. | | | | | | We are producing VGA cards and mother boards for PC's all components to be wave soldered are TH, the SMD is done by reflow in a previous step. | | | We have a medium size wave soldering M/C, heated length is about 130-150 cm with foam fluxer. | | | My colleague -who trained in Taiwan- say that the water Soluable flux is the most suitable flux with this machine, and for this product. | | | I see that the No-clean flux is the most suitable. | | | | | | Is there any one who produces this product can help us? | | | What do you all think? | | | | | | Mohamed | | | | | | | | Mohamed: Both Brian and Wolfgang have done an admirable job of answering one part of your two part question ... the part relating to which flux is appropriate for you product. I prefer the low road and will attempt to answer the other part of your question ... which flux are we supposed to be using with this wave solder machine? | | | | Hopefullly I can keep it as broad and non-specific as the answers to the first part that you are still shaking your head. Just kidding ... gesh ;-) | | | | Foam fluxers do a better job of foaming with mid to high solid content fluxes than low solid content fluxes. So it's up to you to select a flux with a solid content matches-up well with your fluxer. Cause if you don't, you'll be over at Walmart buying paint brushes. HaHaHa Anyhow, generally: | | | | * Water soluable fluxes have mid to high solid content. | | * No-Clean fluxes have low to mid solid content. The higher the solid content no-clean flux, the more ugly, hopefully benign crud that'll be on the surface of your board when you send it to your customer. | | | | Your flux and equipment suppliers can give specific advise on how well you machine matches with the solid content of specific flux types. | | | | In a modern world, the alternative to your foam fluxer for low solid content fluxes is a spray fluxer. Read an article (in the SMTnet library) on spray fluxers our friend Chrys wrote. (it's sad she is no longer with us, because she would make a valuable cintribuion to this discussion, but alas.) | | | | Moving on, in a primative world, the alternative to a foam fluxer is a wave fluxer. If you find yourself in that more primative world, try and get your colleague to be the one recognized by your boss as the maven of wave solder fluxing. | | | | Continuing with that last through, it looks like you and your colleague provide a good balance of backgrounds to help each other grow and assemble good products for your company. (So long as you don't kill each other) ;-0 | | | | Ta | | | | Dave F | | | I agree with all said. I use ultrasonic spray fluxers with most no-cleans as Dave suggested. No need to comment farther but what on earth happened to Chrys? | | Earl Moon | Dunno. She shut down the Siemens plant. They moved the left-overs to Florida. She moved to Joisee, took a new job at a BIG company, down-loaded her article, and was never heard from again. Ta. Dave F

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Mohammed Saad

#9483

Re: water soluable or no clean flux? | 21 September, 1999

Thank you all for your help. about your question Wolfgang, I am using no-clean solder paste from Kester.

Mohammed | | Hi all, | | | | We have a little discussion here about the suitable flux for a certain process, as all of us are beginners we need your advice. | | | | We are producing VGA cards and mother boards for PC's all components to be wave soldered are TH, the SMD is done by reflow in a previous step. | | We have a medium size wave soldering M/C, heated length is about 130-150 cm with foam fluxer. | | My colleague -who trained in Taiwan- say that the water Soluable flux is the most suitable flux with this machine, and for this product. | | I see that the No-clean flux is the most suitable. | | | | Is there any one who produces this product can help us? | | What do you all think? | | | | Mohamed | | | | | Hi Mohamed, | what kinda flux your are using normally depends on the requirements of either yourself or your customer. If a noclean process is wanted than use noclean flux, if the boards are to be washed anyway than an adequate flux for your cleaning process is required. | If you have the choice why not use the noclean process, gives you less handling, less equipment to buy or to use and saves time. | For your wavesolder machine there shouldn�t be any difference, may some slight adjustments in preheat, speed ( get the advice from your flux supplier). | I have worked with noclean flux over years with a similar machine and there were no problems at all. | By the way, what kind of paste do you use in reflow ? | | good luck | Wolfgang | | |

reply »

#9484

Re: water soluable or no clean flux? | 21 September, 1999

| | Hi all, | | | | We have a little discussion here about the suitable flux for a certain process, as all of us are beginners we need your advice. | | | | We are producing VGA cards and mother boards for PC's all components to be wave soldered are TH, the SMD is done by reflow in a previous step. | | We have a medium size wave soldering M/C, heated length is about 130-150 cm with foam fluxer. | | My colleague -who trained in Taiwan- say that the water Soluable flux is the most suitable flux with this machine, and for this product. | | I see that the No-clean flux is the most suitable. | | | | Is there any one who produces this product can help us? | | What do you all think? | | | | Mohamed | | | | | Mohamed: Both Brian and Wolfgang have done an admirable job of answering one part of your two part question ... the part relating to which flux is appropriate for you product. I prefer the low road and will attempt to answer the other part of your question ... which flux are we supposed to be using with this wave solder machine? | | Hopefullly I can keep it as broad and non-specific as the answers to the first part that you are still shaking your head. Just kidding ... gesh ;-) | | Foam fluxers do a better job of foaming with mid to high solid content fluxes than low solid content fluxes. So it's up to you to select a flux with a solid content matches-up well with your fluxer. Cause if you don't, you'll be over at Walmart buying paint brushes. HaHaHa Anyhow, generally: | | * Water soluable fluxes have mid to high solid content. | * No-Clean fluxes have low to mid solid content. The higher the solid content no-clean flux, the more ugly, hopefully benign crud that'll be on the surface of your board when you send it to your customer. | | Your flux and equipment suppliers can give specific advise on how well you machine matches with the solid content of specific flux types. | | In a modern world, the alternative to your foam fluxer for low solid content fluxes is a spray fluxer. Read an article (in the SMTnet library) on spray fluxers our friend Chrys wrote. (it's sad she is no longer with us, because she would make a valuable cintribuion to this discussion, but alas.) | | Moving on, in a primative world, the alternative to a foam fluxer is a wave fluxer. If you find yourself in that more primative world, try and get your colleague to be the one recognized by your boss as the maven of wave solder fluxing. | | Continuing with that last through, it looks like you and your colleague provide a good balance of backgrounds to help each other grow and assemble good products for your company. (So long as you don't kill each other) ;-0 | | Ta | | Dave F | Yes, yes a sprayfluxer is a nice thing to have but until you get one there�s one possible solution for noclean, turn the pressure a bit up and get a, I think it�s called a nozzle, nozzle with a smaller aperture for the foam outlet, they are really cheap compared to a completely new fluxer.

Wolfi

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