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Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions?

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Hi all! after hours of manual hand soldering and after ... - Sep 18, 2013 by jvadillo  

#70916

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 18 September, 2013

Hi all!

after hours of manual hand soldering and after spending thousands of euros subcontracting PCB assembly, we have decided to buy a fully automated pick&place machine.

Our main assembly requirements are 0805/0603 for passives and TQFP-64 0.5mm pitch for ICs.

We have a very limited budget (10k to 15k EUR / 15K to 20K USD) for the PnP machine and we were wondering if it is better to purchase a new unit or a used one.

We have been investigating different alternatives for new equipment, and these are the conclusions:

- Manncorp FVX Benchtop is the basic one from Manncorp and it is already out of our budget.

- Termway TP300V: this one has vision and seems to be quite good and costs USD18000. However this is a chinese manufacturer and I cannot get any feedback from people using it in the real world.

- Essemtec Pantera without vision is in the range of the 40K EUR, so it is out of our budget

- Mechatronika M10V: this one has vision and the total budget including some feeders is almost 20K EUR. It is slow, as it can place 1600 CPH, but up to what we have now, it is the best option, although it is over our budget. Any one of you has some experience with this machine? In the second-hand market we can get here in Spain one TWS Quadra Mechanical for 12k EUR, but up to what we have heard they are not reliable assembling small parts and fine pitch. And we have the option of an Autotronik BS383V1 for around 35000 EUR, but it is out of our budget.

We have seen lots of offers for 15k USD machines outside Spain, and we have written a lot of emails asking for details and 90% of the people are not even answering us.

Well, what is your advice? Would you go for the Mechatronika? Do you know any other manufacturer for low cost PnP machines? Any one of you wants to sell his old equipment and ship it to spain?

Juan

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#70964

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 19 September, 2013

The budget is very small, if there is genuinely a saving to be had by moving this work in-house and away from subcontracting you should really be able to justify spending more. If you can't increase the budget maybe try shopping around for more competitive pricing on the sub-contract. Pick and place machines are complicated accurate pieces of machinery you should really buy one for which you can get ready access to support from a person or company based in Spain. For that reason I would forget strange Chinese machines, when they are ready for the Eur/USA market, people will sell and support them, they clearly are not there yet. Your requirements themselves are not complex, many machines, even old budget ones, can do this. If you look at places like AdoptSMT you will see all sorts of machines, you will also find that some are much more common than others. When it comes to old but affordable, reliable and common I think a MyData TP9 (a later white model not a blue one) could well be your best bet, if you buy it direct from a user you might even find one in-budget. Your local Mechatronika reseller should be able to give you access to satisfied users of those machines and let you ask them questions. If you look to the UK you can find Versatronic RV machines with feeders for ~£5k they can do what you want but you will have to work with the community if you have problems or breakdowns. http://electricstuff.co.uk/forum http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pick-and-Place-SMT-Assembly-machine-RV1S-Versatronics-/281169637641?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4177043109

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#70981

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 19 September, 2013

I would be looking at used or refurbished equipment with that budget. We had a similar budget a few years back and ended up purchasing a rebuilt pick & place machine. We have been extremely happy with the results

Don't forget that you will need to purchase feeders and other accessories to match your production requirements.

Look for popular/common brand names that have been around (this will make it easier to find accessories and spare parts as well as technical support and service).

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#70984

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 19 September, 2013

What is your plan/budget for your reflow oven and paste printer? Those are equally important as a placement machine. Have you factored in other costs of in-house assembly such as inspection, moisture sensitive device storage, rework tools, cleaning processes, testing, utilities, etc. that your contract house is providing? Does your company have the capital to stock all the SMT parts required? There are also indirect costs for machine programming and maintenance. In-house assembly may cost more than one would normally think.

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#70988

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 19 September, 2013

We have already one desktop oven and a manual stencil printer. And we have a quite complete soldering bench with several JBC tools.

We also have stock for all active elements we use. We normally relay on the PCB assembler to provide the passive components, and that's very little money.

In general we have everything covered except for the SMT machine. We only plan to do small batches of production: 25-50 to 100 units of mostly SMD only boards.

Up to now, the best option we have is a Mechatronika M10V. The price for a new unit is higher than our budget, but what the heck, this is a new unit and it can assemble 0.5mm pitch with quite a good precisión. And there are very good opinions out in the internet about this machine. It is true that it is a exteeeemly slow machine (1600 cph), but we cannot ask for everything. Don't forget that a TWS Quadra has something like 3600 cph, and that does not justify that it costs almost twice!

What do you tbik about this PnP unit?

Regards,

Juan

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#70996

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 19 September, 2013

Don't let quoted speeds affect your decision too much. Send copies of pick and place files for actual products you intend to build and ask for simulated placement rates that would be achieved. Our machine has a rated max placement rate of 15,000cph and IPC rated speed of 10,100cph but in our factory building the products we build it rarely places at greater than 6000cph and that's before taking into account handling times. 1600cph is not that slow compared to what can be achieved by hand with the added bonus that everything is in the correct location. Judging by the size of machine you consider acceptable that's easily a whole batch in a single shift, quite possibly more PCB's than you can get through that oven in the same time.

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#71002

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 19 September, 2013

Reliability, number of machines in the field, you can pick up an older UIC GSM and it can easily handlrle 0603's and up. On top of that, any fine pitch or bga's and you'll be fine. Plenty of feedets out there too. Manncorp is as low as u can go. Very good luck if thats your choice . I forgot to add that gsm's are very easy to program.

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#71004

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 20 September, 2013

Thanks for the comment regarding the CPH.

In fact, the benchtop oven we have takes 7 minutes to complete a batch soldering, so you can imagine that our production volume will not be very high. We can parallelize PCB assembly and oven phase. But definetly if we buy a fast machine the oven will become the bottleneck.

My plan is to grow slow but steadly.

I really really have the fear of purchasing a second hand equipment and not being able to put it into operation or having so many issues that the machine may not be useful.

I know that if I purchase a new machine, it might be slow, but it will do the job.

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#71015

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 20 September, 2013

It will be very hard to find anything on this prize. You also have to know that if the machine cost is 15k, the feeders cost might be about the same amount or even more. Even manual placers will probably cost you more. Just try to change the budget.

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#71158

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 29 September, 2013

This is Tonny from China ,I am a salesman at NEODEN TECH CO.,LTD . We are a factory specializing in the manufacture and export of desktop automatic PICK AND PLACE MACHINE (SMT MACHINE) for more than four years. We are the leaders in this technology in China and have got a good repution in this field .Our machines are famous for stable runnning ,high precision & speed ,light-weight and easy operation ,which also help us win high praises from our clients .

We have two models for PNP machine(TM220A/240A),Our machine can mount 0402, 0603, 0805, 1206, 1812, 2010, 2512, SOT-23, LED (3528, 5050), SOT89, SOP-8, SOP-14, SOP-16, SOT-223, SOT-252 and IC components (IC size under 16*16mm, PIN foot less than 100, fine-pitch above 0.6mm, the height of component less than 3mm) with required precision.

What's more ,they only cost $3999/$4999 and no need to buy extra feeds ,really worth to purchase it.

You also can find more info from our website http://www.neodentech.com/ and video website http://www.youtube.com/user/NeoDentech

My email address is : Tonny@neodentech.com

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#71161

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 29 September, 2013

Hi,

we have finally purchased the following second hand equipment: - TWS Quadra pick&place from 2004 - TWS 1100 oven - Motoprint-M automatic screen printer

We are quite happy for the price we paid and what we have obtained. The PnP needs some nozzle adjustment, but in general it works well.

We took some time to see the Neoden pick&place machine. There is an extensive analysis done by Dangerous Prototypes. We sincerely think that this equipment does not match our requirements. The Neoden machine does not have ANY alignment mechanism!!! The quadra, at least, can align mechanically the parts it picks, and it does a pretty good job with 0805 and 0603, but up to what we have seen, the Neoden has serious problems just in placing resistors in the right landing area, so I just don't want to imagine how bad will it behave with a TQFP-64...

Thanks anyway for your comment. If you implement some vision mechanism or some alignment procedure, the machine may become interesting. But with the placement procedure it has now, it is simply useless for reliable production.

Regards,

Juan Ramón

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#71195

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 5 October, 2013

Dear Jvadillo,

Ok,it doesn't matter ,thank you for your reply.

We are researching and developing our new machine which have vision systerm can ensure the precision about mounting for a long time .Maybe will come into the market next year and hoping to meet most of you requirements.

Anyway,if our present machine TM220A/240A have caught your interests ,pls feel free let me know ,tks.

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#71196

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 5 October, 2013

Dear Jvadillo,

Ok,it doesn't matter ,thank you for your reply.

We are researching and developing our new machine which have vision systerm can ensure the precision about mounting for a long time .Maybe our new machine will come into the market next year and hoping to meet most of you requirements.

Anyway,if our present machine TM220A/240A have caught your interests ,pls feel free let me know ,tks.

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PKF

#71493

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 14 December, 2013

Dear Juan;

Our company is pishrokhotoot and we are in SMT business during 25 years ago.

About machines which you mentioned:

1- Termway (Beijing Torch) is piece of shit ,Please remove this brand from your mind. 2- Neotech has some difficulty in operation

I can suggest WZ-SR400 which you can see its data sheet at our website:

http://pishrokhotoot.s5.com/desktopPP.html

The price with one level spare parts is about 5950 USD and with more spare parts is 5950+440 USD.

Machine is very user-friend and you can see in our website Why WZ-SR400 is better than TM240A and TM220A (Comparison List).

Also another good brand is Autotronik.I had bench mark several types of medium production SMT machines during several fair,really Autotronik is the best in medium production.

Please be careful about Termway brand.We have installed some of them and their machines has not quality , stability , after sale services and ....

If you need more information or have any questions , please do not hesitate to contact with me

Best regards.

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PKF

#71569

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 10 January, 2014

Dear Madam/Sir; 1)Unfortunately after some installations and commissioning SMT and THT machines from Beijing Torch (Termway) company in Iran , the quality and operation of these machines seems so so... bad in quality. Because we have some advertisements for you on these machines , please accept our apologies.

2) Neo tech small pick and place is not stable , I have installed TM240 and TM220. Both is not stable.Also these machines has no IC centering chuck and camera and ..., display is so small and ...

3) What I can suggest to my friends is WZ-SR400 three models: (without camera - with industrial camera-with components camera). You can see its data sheet on our website: http://www.pishrokhotoot.s5.com/desktopPP.html This machine is very good for low to medium production

4) I have installed several types of Autotronik machines in Iran and middle east.Really the quality , support and ... is so good .Also Autotronik machines is compatible with medium to high productions.

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#71580

Pick and place machine for small productions. Any suggestions? | 12 January, 2014

Subtle spamvertising there. Lower Cost small machine brands worth looking at are probably: Mechatronic Intelligent Drives (UK only?) TWS Autotronik or their Manncorp branded models in the USA Fritsch Innotech Heeb (a virtually invisible market share?) Essemtec Dima DDM As far as I am aware there are no native Chinese models worth buying, the closest thing there is to a Chinese brand is Autotronik which portrays itself as German. Oddly there seem to be plenty of perfectly good enough Chinese Stencil printer & Reflow brands Anyone shopping around will notice that even cheaper models are not all that cheap and are often riddled with compromises. Unless you are pushed for space the very bottom end should only be considered if space is your primary concern, 2nd user machines from bigger brands are more robust and equally affordable, often with better alignment options.

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