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Entry-Level PnP + BGA?

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#66263

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 4 May, 2012

Greetings! I run a small CM company in the Midwest. We built our business on THT production for the boutique music products industry and are currently planning our launch of a low-volume/high-mix SMT line to support the growth of our business.

Our goal is to pay around $120K for the entire line, stencil through reflow. From what I've read in the forums, buying new is recommended in order to establish the supplier relationship and gain training and support. At our price-point, however, Manncorp and Essemtec seem to be the only options.

Here's the trick: our first project out of the gate will require us to precisely place a 324-pin 0.80mm BGA, a 3mm x 3mm LGA, and passives down to 0201; I expect more of the same in the future. Super-fast throughput is not a requirement for us. Quality of the finished product is, along with easy setup and change-over, training and support.

Does the Essemtec Pantera or FLX2011, or the Manncorp MC series have what it takes to do the job for us? Any other recommendations? Thanks in advance...

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#66267

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 4 May, 2012

The Manncorp machines are Autotronik machines re-branded. These are Chinese built while pretending to be German, they are seemingly capable enough and do come in at very attractive price points. The FLX from Essemtec is in many ways a slicker machine although I would have expected it to be slightly too expensive for your budget. In fact I would have thought the Pantera XV would be the one to look at. I would also look at the Dima ATOZ or even MP-100. I would also be tempted to suggest a batch vapor-phase reflow process - lots of control, small footprint. I have never used any of these machines, rather our company only recently completed the same process with similar criteria, in the event we increased the budget. The laws of diminishing returns do not seem to apply to SMT 30% more buys you 3 times the machine and its always a good idea to buy for tomorrow not today. Whatever you choose make sure you feel like&trust the company you are dealing with.

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#66272

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 5 May, 2012

I currently use an Essemtec CSM7100V (I've used it for about 5 years), which will place 0.5mm pitch and 0402s. I bought this after selling a Manncorp machine (used it for about 3 years). Service from Essemtec (manufacturer) is MUCH different than Manncorp (distributor). The stories are too long to tell here in the forum, but I highly recommend Essemtec over Manncorp. Although I must admit that the new vision systems on the Manncorp machines is interesting.

I use a manual stencil printer, the LPKF ProtoPrint S, which can hold a 12" x 17" cast frame. Don't waste your time with a clam-shell style printer. A printer with auto-fiducial recognition would be better, of course, but for my purposes this printer is sufficient.

For my oven I use a small 3-zone+cooling Mistral 260. I have limited space and limited power which lead to this selection. I am happy with it's performance. I have also used batch ovens, but definitely prefer the convection conveyor type.

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#66273

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 7 May, 2012

i would suggest an refurbished mydata line

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#66282

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 8 May, 2012

Wow! Thanks for the replies, everyone. Lots to digest. I'm going to take some time to do some research in these various directions and may have more questions. Thanks again for the recommendations and advice.

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#66284

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 8 May, 2012

The Dima PnP machines look really nice -- exactly the size and capabilities we will need for the next 3-5 years. Apparently, however, they are supported in the US by Manncorp. I have nothing personally against Manncorp, but have heard bits here and there that suggest I look elsewhere. Training and support are pretty important for us. I have years of experience on the engineering side, but this is my first deep-dive into SMT assembly and we're going to need all the help we can get.

Which machines did you decide on after your investigative process and why? What are you presently using?

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#66321

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 11 May, 2012

Good question and always fun to wade through all the issues.

We currently run an Essemtec FLX2010 and a Manncorp CR-6000 oven. Our printer is an Essemtec SP002 (I think) guided manual.

We have been running the Essemtec equipment for ~6 years and have had the oven for about 2 years.

In my opinion either the Essemtec or the Manncorp P&P will do the job for you. Essemtec has been pretty good to deal with, but then Manncorp has been OK too. The real thing you need to condsider is the oven and paste application. Both of these issues are going to be critical to your success. I would insist on a semi-auto printer with automatic fiducial recognition, do not settle for less or you will regret it. As for the oven the more zones the better. In my experience the Essemtec ovens are way over-priced for what they offer. While I like the guys at Essemtec I cannot recomend their ovens. Yes they will tell you what they can do, but really take a good look before you plunge into one. The Manncorp oven was very price competetive, has worked great, is well built, but it is loaded with Chinglish. The warning labels are Chinglish (Beware Press the Hands) and the manual is horrible, but for the price I do not think you can beat it.

I am in the process (very slow process) of trying to find a decent printer, so I have nothing to recomend. I would consider used, from a reputable broker, for this item.

I think you will find your budget is a bit low. That was our budget 6 years ago and we were not attempting BGA at that time.

Good Luck! Let us know what you decide.

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jfs

#70076

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 28 July, 2013

> Greetings! I run a small CM company in the > Midwest. We built our business on THT production > for the boutique music products industry and are > currently planning our launch of a > low-volume/high-mix SMT line to support the > growth of our business. > > Our goal is to pay > around $120K for the entire line, stencil through > reflow. From what I've read in the forums, > buying new is recommended in order to establish > the supplier relationship and gain training and > support. At our price-point, however, Manncorp > and Essemtec seem to be the only > options. > > Here's the trick: our first project > out of the gate will require us to precisely > place a 324-pin 0.80mm BGA, a 3mm x 3mm LGA, and > passives down to 0201; I expect more of the same > in the future. Super-fast throughput is not a > requirement for us. Quality of the finished > product is, along with easy setup and > change-over, training and support. > > Does the > Essemtec Pantera or FLX2011, or the Manncorp MC > series have what it takes to do the job for us? > Any other recommendations? Thanks in advance...

> Greetings! I run a small CM company in the > Midwest. We built our business on THT production > for the boutique music products industry and are > currently planning our launch of a > low-volume/high-mix SMT line to support the > growth of our business. > > Our goal is to pay > around $120K for the entire line, stencil through > reflow. From what I've read in the forums, > buying new is recommended in order to establish > the supplier relationship and gain training and > support. At our price-point, however, Manncorp > and Essemtec seem to be the only > options. > > Here's the trick: our first project > out of the gate will require us to precisely > place a 324-pin 0.80mm BGA, a 3mm x 3mm LGA, and > passives down to 0201; I expect more of the same > in the future. Super-fast throughput is not a > requirement for us. Quality of the finished > product is, along with easy setup and > change-over, training and support. > > Does the > Essemtec Pantera or FLX2011, or the Manncorp MC > series have what it takes to do the job for us? > Any other recommendations? Thanks in advance...

Hello

I am a small manufacturer of LED lighting, and this will be my first attempt into producing and populating PCBs. TI notice in your question you asked about the SMT and reflow purchasing in May 2012, I was hoping you could help me

I run a small LED lighting factory, were running into tons of problems, with China, customs, quality, delivery time, vendor reliability etc. etc. etc.

we have made a decision to purchase a turnkey line, we have no expectations (right now our main issue is to be able to populate the boards nothing else) other than to place the chips on the boards I was hoping you could advise me it seems there are basically two options mann tech and Essemtec since we're in Brooklyn both of them would seem logistically suitable for our needs.

Of course one of the most important questions in my mind, is support; you might even say it's the first question in my mind

Manntech seems to think they can put a full line in the $75,000, noticing most of the threads were from 2012, I think this might be feasible. right now I'm getting a cost of population in China .02 cents per chip, CM's in America seems to come up with .05 cents a chip. So if it is feasible to put a full line in for $75,000, it might make me very competitive, as you can probably imagine my market is extremely competitive, and some of the big problems are chip vendors are also making the light bulbs so pricing becomes a huge factor in the equation

so I have a couple questions, basically,

1 which vendor would be more appropriate for simple pick and place of just the chips, 2 who would be the most responsive for helping with downtime 3 who would have the most advanced technology 4 other any other vendors out there who might need my requirements

I would appreciate any help I could get on the subject, we're trying to get a product made in America and bring it back from offshore we just moved to a 20,000 ft.² factory, from 6000 ft.² and with feeling like we can be competitive

again we're a small company, so we can afford to make any mistakes in this area as our resources are limited

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#70092

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 29 July, 2013

Greetings! TWS Automation has the perfect machine for your needs. The Quadra DVC is an inexpensive, vision system centered, 0201 capable, Pick & Place machine with 3300 cph max speed. A complete line, including a TWS Automation Stencil Printer and Reflow Oven can easily fit in your budget. VB Controls is an authorized distributor of TWS Automation. We provide training and a list of related vendors with the sale. Check us out at VB-Controls.com or call 540-822-9228. Best Regards, Steve

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#70184

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 3 August, 2013

I have had some experience with both Manncorp specifically the 7722 machine and the Essemtec 7100.

Both machines are supported in my software PCBSynergy. http://members.iinet.net.au/~sarason/

The service from Manncorp for my friends machine after shelling out 30K$Au was to say the least completely underwhelming, It is partially documented in this thread at adafruit Industries

http://forums.adafruit.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=26353

It basically took 6 months and help from another enthusiastic amateur (vinncentp) to get it going. If it was my money it would have been returned through the front window with a brick!

The Essemtec experience was that it simply worked, admittedly it cost a lot more about 80K$Au. But if I was Manncorp I would be sacking people or closing the company and starting again!!

regards sarason

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#70189

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 3 August, 2013

#70226

Entry-Level PnP + BGA? | 5 August, 2013

Hello Scotty,

As a CM, your first process should be new. We bought a Quadra P&P centric line to build our solid state relay products and loved it so much, we (VB Controls) became a TWS Automation distributor. Recommendation: 2700 semi-automatic screen printer with vision system, Quadra DVC P&P with 15 feeders (up to 120, 8mm tapes), and a TWS1390 convection oven. List will be about $90K. Bank financing for 60 months lets the process pay for itself (about $18K down and $1300/month). See VB-Controls.com, tws-automation.com. All the best, Steve.

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