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Mydata Pick and place

My company is a low-volume high mix contact electronic manuf... - May 08, 2001 by paul  

paul

#6520

Mydata Pick and place | 8 May, 2001

My company is a low-volume high mix contact electronic manufacturer. We are currently looking at purchasing a pick and place machine that is capable of mounting such new components as microBGA's and other CSP's at such ball pitches as 0.5mm for example and also 0402 and components upto 50mm squared. I am looking currently at the Mydata MY15 which looks quite user friendly and has a repeatability of 15 micron @3 sigma . What other pick and place equipment do you recommend? example universal siplace JUKI etc

Thanks

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tdao

#6521

Wavesolder Streckfuss Model EO14 | 8 May, 2001

Hello,

Is anyone out there currently working with this equipment or knowing where to get additional spare parts to support it ?

Please let me know .

Your input is appreciated !

Tri Dao

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#6525

Wavesolder Streckfuss Model EO14 | 9 May, 2001

Two things to try, if you don't get direct answers:

1 Use the contact points at http://www.streckfuss.com/wave_soldering.htm

2 Do a net search on "wave solder streckfuss". Call the companies that list Streckfuss wave solder machines in their capability statements and become friends.

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#6526

Mydata Pick and place | 9 May, 2001

The two first level cuts at comparing placement machines are: * Placement rate * Range of component capabilities

This boils-down approximately to machine price. Virtually, everyone's feeders are priced similarly.

Go to "Circuits Assembly" magazine. Each year, they do a simple minded tabular comparison of many placement machines.

Finally, I've never seen a single Siplace in a serious product environment. Not that that machine has anything to do with a Mydata.

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CAL

#6533

Mydata Pick and place | 9 May, 2001

My personal favorite is the Siemens F series and the UIC GSM platform. Both Siemens and UIC have awesome resources for csp, flipchip and baredie processing - Siemens= Dan Baldwin from GaTech; UIC = George Westby from UIC labs.

My second choice would be Panasonic/Create or Assembleon (Philips). Panasonic/Create has been doing great things in Asia on 0201 and fine pitch devices.

My third choice would be Mydata or Fuji. My data has easy software and large PCB ability. Fuji is great for High speed- chip placement.

My fourth choice would be Juki, Contact systems, Samsung, Europlacer.

Marginal consideration Suzuki, Ipulse, Sony, MIMOT.

*Note Multitroniks is not listed I don't have enough data points except people who have these machines like then - also do not know how the recent Tyco purchase of Multitroniks will effect that.

**Quad has not been listed do to the state of flux they are in after filing chapter 11.

These opinions are from my personal experience. For every bad story you will have a good story. My advice would be to prove out the machine you are serious about. Narrow your list to the top 5 or 6 and evaluate each one.Things to consider.....Repeatability, accuracy, errors(Feeder,vision,etc), speed, dropped components, Service, support, spareparts, floor space, maintenance, training, flexibility, programming,..... And run your production board in addition to the OEM prove out board.

Cal

Caldon W. Driscoll ACI USA 610-362-1200 cdriscoll@aciusa.org

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kjellman

#6540

Mydata Pick and place | 10 May, 2001

Hi,

Why not have a look at Philips/Assembl�on, their ACM machine is quite nice. It may also bring you down to Flip Chip, 0201 some through hole and odd form placement. Nice options like bulk feeding, coplanarity tests, fluxing for FC, prom feeders (for prgramming in machine), e.t.c. Also has a nice portfolio for high speed and medium volume with their FCM and Topaz. Perhaps the ACM works best with one additional machine like Topaz or maybe one more ACM to raise feeder capacity, one ACM handles 100 8mm tapes if you�re not using a tray trolley (tray elevator), then it�s 75 8mm tapes. www.assembleon.com

The MYDATA machines have more feeder slots (like MY-19) and are great as stand-alone machines.They also have fast changeover times and they have improved a lot with their MIDAS mounting head. But I still miss a fluxing unit in it. I guess it all comes down to how you calculate on things and what your needs are.

Good Luck!

Patrik

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J.D.

#6551

SMT Pick and Place | 10 May, 2001

Paul,

My company offers an excellent solution for low volume/high mix applications. The issue always becomes how can you reduce downtime/changeover. There are few features on our machines that allow you to do this effectively:

-Load feeders while the machine is running. -If you have a PCB size change you can setup the pin supports offline while you are running and when it is time to changeover all you do is slide out the old setup and slide in the new setup. -Preventive maintenance is easily done and takes little time. -Once the machine is calibrated it stays that way. You won't have to adjust the machine every time you turn it on.

If you like I can send you the literature on modular equipment that lends itself to your type of manufacturing.

Sincerely,

J.D. Talken Panasonic Create jtalken@panasonicfa.com

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#6566

Mydata Pick and place | 12 May, 2001

We are also a medium volume, high mix contract manufacture, last year we purchased a MYDATA MY12 with Linescan and Hydra. It is a great machine. We had a MultiTroniKs before but it was not as good as the MY-12. The MYDATA will do everything and do it well. I wished I had purchased the MY-15 to get more feeder space. The MYDATA is real easy to use and program. The software is real solid, who need Windows. I looked at most of the other macines on the market and felt the MYDATA offered the most for the money. MYDATA's support is real good, thier techinicans know the product. I had some doubts about the tape feeders but after using the machine all the doubts went away.

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Grant Petty

#6680

Mydata Pick and place | 24 May, 2001

Hi,

I would agree. We purchased a TP9 just the slow machine, but we were a small company at the time, and it worked fantastic. Almost no maintenance, and it's a dream to changeover.

The serivce in Australia is also very good, but that does not apply to you of course.

When we started with the TP9, we useds a hand help tube to deposit solder paste, and a hand held heat gun to reflow the boards, so we really started out the hard way. The MTDATA gues looked at us a little werid when they installed the machine, but within a few months we had stencil printing and relow oven facilitys.

I really think the MYDATA allows us to build an important part of our company and allowed us to do things we could not have otherwise done. It performed exactly as advertized, and I will purchase another the next time I need SMT placement.

We did everything from 0604 up to 240QFT, J Lead, and large BGA with no problems.

I hope this werid story helps. I asked the same question on this forum when we were looking at the machine a few years ago.

Regards,

Grant Petty.

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Paul Gerits

#17347

Mydata Pick and place | 24 August, 2001

Hi,

Have a look at following site assembleon.com

They have exactly the equipment you're looking for and with the requirements you asking for.

In case you want detailed information you can contact me via e-mail or phone (+31 - 40 - 27 66053). I can provide you with all possible machine information you want. The information is to large to put on this reply.

Regards,

Paul Gerits Business Development Assembleon

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Hussman

#17351

Mydata Pick and place | 24 August, 2001

Paul,

All the machines yulisted are very god at placement. One thing to keep in mind is parts availability. Some of our jobs come from the customer in "kits". Not everyone supplies you with a full real of parts. Be sure that the machine you pick can do tubes and partial cuts from reels or the dreaded bag of parts. Unless you already of a reeling machine and can handle all the different part capability. It sounds like you're on the right track with Mydata already.

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#17357

Mydata Pick and place | 26 August, 2001

I would like to enter the discussion by tossing some numbers in. First of all I don�t like the 3 Sigma value. 3 Sigma are 2000 defects per mio. if I remember correctly. This means, if you have 200 components on the board, then every 10 boards have one defect. I don�t find this acceptable and compare machines on a 4 Sigma level. Second, regarding Dave�s comment about Siplace never go alone, I would like to remind him in the CP III, IP II couple, which was usually mentioned in one breath, as if the machines were bolted together. I think it makes sense to separate the machines by its task of putting the small components down fast and the larger components and the ones requiring special handling ( like dip fluxing as Cal mentioned ) on a different machine. If you try to put it all in one machine, you pay your price for it and the overall performance is pretty low. A chip shooter, IC placer combo does lets say 25,000 comp./ hour and 2,000 comp./hour. In my sample I compare a board with 200 chips and 20 IC�s . The shooter places the 200 components in 28.8 second, one every 144 ms and the IC placer puts the components down in 36 sec. You may pay for the combo $ 800,000. The �do it all� machine has a multiple nozzle head and an IC head. It places the chips in a rate of 10,000 comp/hour and the IC�s in a rate of 2,000 comp./hour. It requires 72 sec. for the chips, while the IC head dangles useless on the gantry. Add 36 sec. for the IC head, while the other heads are idle. This totals in 108 sec. and costs $ 200,000 to $ 350,000. You become to like the vendor, their service and machine handling and you need more performance. If you add another �do it all� machine, you get now two boards in 108 sec. but you will have to buy a third machine to beat the performance of the chip shooter, IC machine combo. Price wise it looks almost the same. You may utilize the two or three machines different and run different jobs on each machine. I doubt that one operator can run all three machines with different jobs on every machine. Board printing and oven profile may require two or three separate lines. By now you pay more money for your boards. I feel you would have been better off to add a chip shooter instead of the second �do it all� machine. But now you may have to go to a different vendor, different software, spare parts and service.

My personal favor is a Sanyo chip shooter. I have no data from their IC placer.

Your requirement of 50 X 50 mm and flip chip may not be possible with one camera. A second camera is not a problem, but adds to the cost.

Yes, there are many machines on the used machine market. You may pay a penalty if you don�t buy from the manufacturer. Check, if your machine is been serviced if you decline to pay the fee or if third party service is available in your area.

Stefan

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Brock

#17383

Mydata Pick and place | 28 August, 2001

Stefan,

I could be wrong but I have a question about every 10th board having a defect. If a machine places 1 million components and a the board has 200 components you arrive at 5000 boards. If every 10th board has a defect, then only 500 boards have a defect which equates to 500 ppm, not 2000 ppm.

I believe that every 2.5 (5000/2.5= 2000)boards would have a defect if the board has 200 components on it.

If my math is correct the machine @ 3 sigma performs even worse than you thought.

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Sean D

#17388

Mydata Pick and place | 28 August, 2001

Hello Paul,

Without all of the specific details of your product I would recommend providing the BOMs and samples to a couple of vendors and have them prove their capabilities. The Siplace platform is a solid platform for your application and the apps support team can quatnify that statement with real numbers. If price is a concern, Siemens now offers factory certified refurbished equipment to help you meet the financial requirements of your ROI. This could provide you with a cost effective machine that gives you alot of growth potenital in manufacturing. We have a smaller customer here in our territory who persued this path and has had a great deal of success.

Siemens also has an incredible demo and apps facility in Norcross so you can see the machines and dig into your application with the staff there. You can get more data at http://www.siplace.com

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or concerns.

Best Regards, Sean 480-829-8170 ext. 14

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Scott B

#17392

Mydata Pick and place | 28 August, 2001

You have to be careful here.

The figure is expressed as placement accuracy, not process quality therefore 3 sigma does not relate to 2700 PPM defects but 2700 parts per million placed outwith 15microns (0.0006" / 0.6thou). Extrapolating the distribution curve this could also be expressed as 0.45 sigma - 0.38 parts per million placed outwith 25.4microns (0.001" / 1thou) which is accurate and repeatable enough down to 0.012" (12thou) pitch devices.

Ouch - my head hurts.

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#17393

Mydata Pick and place | 28 August, 2001

you are right ( Brock ), thank you for the correction.

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#17394

Mydata Pick and place | 28 August, 2001

I did not question the accuracy, which is very good, but only 99.8 % of the time. If I require this accuracy for a certain part to be placed, than I want to have this part on target more often than 3 sigma permits.

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Eric123

#17431

Mydata Pick and place | 30 August, 2001

I recommend the Mydata if you want to reduce your stress. I am using Siemens at a new company today. It reminds me of my Quad days, once you get it running it works well but the getting there drives you nuts. Siemens is not up there in the user freindly programming category.

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