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SMT placement machines. Where are we going ?

Views: 9536

Subject: What placement platform/manufacturer will dominate ... - May 19, 2009 by Sr.Tech  

getting paid for what ... - May 20, 2009 by mikehe  

... - Jun 03, 2009 by SMTGUY  

Gary, .....huh ? ... - Jun 18, 2009 by Sr.Tech  

#58845

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 19 May, 2009

Subject: What placement platform/manufacturer will dominate the future of sub-contract? or OEM for that matter.

I have worked multiple placement platforms over the last 20 years. I have worked with Dynapert,Celmacs,Fuji and contact systems to name a few. Our current main platform is Fuji. CP's,QP's and IP's Circa 93-2K

We recently bought a new Juki. KE machine

Here is my prediction. All of this surplus Fuji,Universal etc ect.. equipment is going to become worth very little very soon. If it already isn't.

We are very impressed with the complete Juki package. Without going too in depth,all I will say is that I have never seen a placement platform that does absolutely everything the manufacturer claims it will.

I am interested to hear others take(s) on this subject. What machines do YOU think will be the next big one ?

We receive no benefit from any of the above equipment suppliers.

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#58846

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 19 May, 2009

Don't forget the three year Juki warrenty.

I worked for a company that got great deals on Panasonics after the last big downturn.

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mij

#58851

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 19 May, 2009

JUKI's the way to go, I feel getting one could be the saviour of a company if they want to run small & large batch sizes. Fairly quick setup times -after a bit of practice, reliability, very accurate placement of almost any component size. My lifes been alot less stressfull since getting one (no I don't work for Juki!)

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#58852

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 19 May, 2009

Yes, set up/change overs are very quick.

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#58854

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 19 May, 2009

we use Sony and Assembleon and we just placed out first 0201's with the Sony G200, both are very nice machines and placed on the money.

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#58858

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 20 May, 2009

How much you getting paid for this one?

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#58859

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 20 May, 2009

getting paid for what

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#58874

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 22 May, 2009

Yeah, 16 years is a long long time in the SMT pick and place machine world... no surprise that you are impressed.

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#58881

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 23 May, 2009

Pete, I looked at several other suppliers. They left me un-impressed.

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#58882

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 24 May, 2009

Hi,

It looks like your machines are so old, that anything built within the last 10 years would look like magic to you. Odd post, and does seem like an add for juki.

Grant

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#58886

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 25 May, 2009

I assure you this is no add. I have posted on here for years, and NO we do not recieve benefit from Juki. I am just a technical guy that has worked in the trenches every day with various pick and place machines over the years.

Let me re-state that I have seen new equipment. None of it did everything that was advertised. There always seemed to be a hitch with something.

The original post is what I found to be true. Believe it, or don't believe it. It's just trivial I guess.

My intention of this post was to hear a VALID point to the contrary.

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#58888

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 25 May, 2009

If it had been an ad I think he would have mentioned the 3yr warrenty. Or does no one else find that impressive as well as desirable?

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JAX

#58890

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 25 May, 2009

Didn't "Tommy Boy" say something about warranties?

This thread is ridiculous... You cannot crown a Machine Manufacturer as King. Everyone has Pro's and Con's that need to be weighed and measured for each potential customer.

The fastest machine for placing "popcorn" is not going to be able to place parts > 1" tall.

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#58897

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 26 May, 2009

Hi,

So you looked at Fuji and it did not live up to the marketing? I own the latest model Fuji's and they more than live up to the marketing so I don't know what your talking about. Perfect placement, very fast, and with all 6 of our machines have never ever broken down ever. Don't know how that's not living up to the sales hype for the machine?

Grant

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#58900

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 26 May, 2009

Grant, The Fuji's looked good. However, the pricing and warranty is not competitive for their comparable machine.

In addition, we are not a big fan of Fuji coming out with new feeder designs that are not backwards compatible. The first generation of Juki feeders work with the latest machines.

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#58907

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 26 May, 2009

Guys,

I need to set up a new SMT line. I already got a refurb DEK 265 and Vitronics XPM3 reflow. I currently use Siemens but is getting really expensive (spare parts, service, upgrades, etc), I'm thinking Universal, Panasonic or Assembleon. Can you give me your take on this if you have handled these platforms. Sales people are not welcome to reply.

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#58908

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 26 May, 2009

I have worked on many platforms over the past 20+ years of being in SMT, before that it was thru hole so I go back to the late 70's in this line of work. Some manufacturers I have worked with have been Quad,Fuji,Amistar,Sanyo and Universal. Of those, Universal is hands down the best. If you need assistance you get someone that speaks english, they have a great web site and will bend over backwards to make you happy with their equipment. I have known most for over 30 years due to my thru hole days and smt so I may seem to be biased due to friendships but I like working with them. I have seen juki run and it may be ok for low volume high mix floors but for our needs a juki line would need to be 50-75 yards long to reach our numbers. JMHO

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#58915

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 27 May, 2009

I am not sure on Panasonic or Assembleon. Last I heard, Universal was getting ready to be liquidated.

I haven't used DEK printers. Vitronics ovens are very nice. We have 3 XPM2's and an XPM1. They are work horses.

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#58928

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 28 May, 2009

We have universal advantis which us there leser machine I could'nt be happier with it we used to have Amistar machines for ten years it worked ok. but the universal lighting head works great we have had our machines for about 2 years now with very little trouble programing is great make a program offline through to the machine and it runs with no editing most of the time. and so far there has been no editing or tweeking of the program run after run I have not worked with machines that the program didn't need any tweeking run after run as far as the warennty let them know maybe they will exstend it for you. the support is second to none.

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#58930

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 28 May, 2009

We have Universal Genesis Lightning, Genesis In-Line 7, Advantis Flexjet + just bought 2 new Genesis platforms. Great machines. Good for high volumes or small, proto builds.

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#58942

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 29 May, 2009

Hi,

I have only handled MYDATA and Fuji personally. MYDATA was not realiable, Fuji's are perfect.

As for feeders the XP series, we have 5 of them, and they all use the same feeders as the older machines such as CP and IP series. The XP can even use the old pneumatic feeders.

However for higher speed XPF series, they need to go faster than these older feeders can handle, so had to update them. However even still the same feeders are compatible with XPF, NXT etc.

Grant

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#58956

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 1 June, 2009

This is a most INTERESTING thread! Every Pick and Place machine has its plus side and negative. Having worked on both sides, broker/service and production, I think I have a unique perspective on this. Over the years our market has changed to be more flexible. All SMT equipment has its place. I investigated multiple machines for mid-volume production, (we are keeping with Mydata for batch, low volume runs). After going point to point with all on price, capacity, speed, cost, changeover and warranty, we found all to be fairly close. I have worked with Fuji, Universal, etc. We chose as finalist: Universal, Mydata, Assembleon and Contact Systems. Our choice: Assembleon MG1-R. We use DEK Horizon 3i, and Heller reflow.

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#58965

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 2 June, 2009

Probably covering old ground here, but when I read marketing data, brochures etc for new P&P machines, they always state the CPH. You know... 12,000 chips per hour or 18,000 chips per hour and so on and so forth. However, you try and place 0201's at anywhere near that placement speed and you'll have parts all over the place. I was recently talking to someone who evaluated two new "state of the art" machines to run two runs of 10,000 boards. Each with 37 0201's on it. Both machines had engineers from the manufacturer on the shop floor for the entire production run. Both machines were able to do the job however only running at about 30% of full machine speed (not 30% of advertised CPH). I am not going to mention machine names however both are mentioned several times in this post. At the end of the day you have to take marketing fluff with a pinch of salt.

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#58984

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 2 June, 2009

I can tell you from current experience that the Sony and Assembleon machines are bullet proof. I just placed 0201's on the Sony G200 and ran it at wide open throttle and it didn't skip a beat. You have to keep in mind that the speed ratings that the OEM's give you are based on a small board where the head dosent have to travel to far. From my experience you can take 50-75% of what they try to sell you.

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#58989

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 3 June, 2009

Is it ok to have your contact details? We are benchmarking Universal Genesis and Assembleon Topaz. Those are our final 2 now. I want to get your in depth experience with your Genesis even if I have to pay you.

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#58990

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 3 June, 2009

Oh I forgot to mention my last message was for SWAG

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#58992

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 3 June, 2009

#58995

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 3 June, 2009

The most innovative new technology today is ccoming out of Fuji. They don't really advertise, so if you haven't gone to a show lately you might not have seen it. The machine is call the XPF-W and it sets the new standard for quality, accuracy, reliablitity and features. The machine uses a rotary placement head which is far superior to the inline nzzle systems that many other vendors use. The key advantage is that the rotary head can pick-up from the same feeder of down row of feeders at basically the same speed and can make independent off-sets for each feeder. The machine also has smart feeders, electronic set-up verification, auto rail width, auto back-up support, glue dispensing, flux dipping for PoP. It handles a 20" X 27" board, holds 128 feeders, places components from 01005 to 45mm square, averages about 16k cph and is only five feet wide and six feet deep. Now thats technology!

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#59064

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 12 June, 2009

Hi,

We just had delivered one of these and it's incredible. It's an amazing machine, and watching it load such a large board totally accurately, from end to end is amazing.

Apparently we took delivery of only the second machine to ship in the world, and that was in March, so these machines are very new. Very happy with it.

Only down side is we like to use the large reels for passives, and the 8 mm feeders don't take them like we could use on the XP series. So back to small reels of passives again it seems.

I loved the XP feeders because you could use low cost CP feeders, but the motor feeders on this machine are the same as from the NXT range and give us back the ability to change feeders while continuing to load a board, which was the only disadvantage of the XP's mechanical feeders. Apparently the motor feeders are faster too.

What's interesting is how the machine can change from a chip shooter to a fine pitch placer by just picking up the turret or single nozzle. It's full speed as both types of machine, and dynamically changes between the two during loading. It's quite a dramatic improvement in how the line is optimized.

I liked with the MYDATA that you had a single placement nozzle as well as a HYDRA head for chip shooting on the one machine, but with Fuji XP you had to buy two machines one chip shooter, and one fine pitch placer. The MYDATA suffered for allowing both on the one machine as the head had more mass, so was slower, but with XPF it can also do both, but without any speed penalty. That's because it just changes the whole head from a fine pitch nozzle to a full turret. They are all vacuum picked up, so it's an instant change and very fast.

It's interesting how they have increased the speed of the turret further over the XP-143's. On the XP the turret is small and holds 12 nozzles, so it only has to turn to pick and place. Turning is quite low mass, so it's fast to do, and the camera photos the whole turret at once as the head travels to the board so the machine is very fast.

I wondered how they could improve the speed without components flying off the turret nozzles, however on XPF they now have a small arm that rotates around the turret in the counter direction and is used to select which tool to lower. This is even smaller mass than the turret itself, so the turret and this arm both move and meet at the tool so the whole thing works much faster because the turret now does not even need to rotate through a full 360 degrees to place all the components on it's nozzles. It's a blur, and seems to work really well so far.

Only had the machine for a few months though, and it's for a new product, that has just under 12,000 components on the one large board, mostly leadless and passive type components, plus some big BGA. Works well, and it really needs to as this board we are doing has well over $10K of components on it!

Good news so far.

Grant

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#59081

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 17 June, 2009

very interesting concept...what does a machine like that sell for?

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#59087

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 17 June, 2009

Do not be too pessimistic,Good things may come up

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#59091

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 18 June, 2009

Gary, .....huh ?

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#59093

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 18 June, 2009

Hi,

Not sure I would have to look it up, as we purchased it in Yen, and there is so many millions of Yen for it!

Grant

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#59128

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 25 June, 2009

Check out spare parts cost for Assembleon, they rape you 3 to 4 times markup and specialty parts you can only get through them.

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#59135

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 26 June, 2009

thanks James, that is good to know about Assembleon. Siemens does that all the time to me nowadays. Anything that anybody want to say to Universal Advantas X ? I benchmarked a Universal AC30 + AX11, an Assembleon MC24 + MC1, a Siemens SX2 + SX1, a Juki 2070E + 2080E, and 2 Fuji XPF-Ls on a 800+ mixed placements board with 0402s as smallest, Assembleon and Siemens are the fastest while Juki and Fuji are the slowest. But actually I don't need speed if they are not that significantly different from each other. What I really need is the ease and speed of setup changeovers. I have not actually touched the machines when I did the benchmark so I'm not really sure which one is easiest to setup/teardown, any advise from anyone who've actually set-up these machines before?

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#60774

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 6 January, 2010

If you are working smt machines in Europe or US then your most important issue is setup time and operators needed to run the machine. People are way more expensive then machines.

I know the assembleon machines, Gem line and the new MG lines are great, but make sure you have enough feeders and trolleys to lower the change over time.

Have someone make a setup while the previous product still runs, this way the machine keeps running.

Assembleon machines are good, one preventive maintenance a year and they run problem free.

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#60787

SMT placement machines. Where are we going ? | 7 January, 2010

I fully agree with Demusch that it is the people who are really the most expensive resource for any industry. You cannot judge the plus and minus of the brand you have not used, rather it is merely a perception and experience of who all have actually used the product.

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