Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

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SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


New to SMT Equipment

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#56523

New to SMT Equipment | 16 September, 2008

Would appreciate any input you might have in our search for an SMT line. We are an OEM done our through in house but outsourced our SMT production. We have a couple of new products that are going to be higher volume so we have decided to look into adding an SMT line. This is all new to us and we have no experience with this type of equipment. We have looked at new equipment but are leaning toward used to keep the initial investment down. At this time there will be two primary boards that will be run on the line with a couple of other boards run in smaller volume from time to time so change over isn't going to be that great of an issue. Our volumes will be pretty low for a while with the line probably only running a couple of days a week at most.

We have looked at new lines from Essemtec and Manncorp but have major concerns regarding support and reliability of the Manncorp. For used equipment we are looking at a number of different manufacturers/models listed below.

Pick & Place Juki 570 Contact Systems 3Z Universal GSM1

Printer DEK 260

Reflow Looking at several 5 & 6 zone units from companies such as Heller and Conceptronics.

Any input you might have on the above equipment or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

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#56525

New to SMT Equipment | 16 September, 2008

If support is a concern, don't forget that any support provided by equipment manufacturers will most likely (certainly with Juki and Universal) require registration of the machines at a cost to you of probably $2k-$5k per machine. Some used equipment brokers provide service as well.

How many parts per month? 50k, 150k, 500k? What technology? Fine pitch, .050" pitch, BGA, lead free?

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#56526

New to SMT Equipment | 16 September, 2008

Thank you for your comments and questions.

Did not realize that they charge for the registration. Was just reading some info on the service contracts through Contact Systems and saw they required the system to be registered. One of the brokers that we are talking with has local techs that have been working with the equipment we are looking and could provide at minimum installation and training but should be able handle our service as well. Doing research I have seen some horror stories about some of the lines in regard to getting both parts and service.

Right now our volumes will be low but projections for our current boards would be in the neighborhood of 200-250K a month though we have a couple of custom designs we are working on that could add another 50K or so. There are a couple of older designs that would be run from time to time with larger components but most designs have 0402 and as low as 15mil component. The next rev of one of our boards would have a 12.7mil BGA but this would be our first design with BGA and am not sure if we will be utilizing this technology on a regular basis. There are going to be a few small volume runs for older design that won't be but all new designs are lead free.

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#56527

New to SMT Equipment | 16 September, 2008

Mydata is worth looking at. I think they are a great first machine. And it's best to buy a used one direct from Mydata. They are extremely anal about their used machines and you might not be able to tell it's a used machine, it will be refurbed so well.

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#56529

New to SMT Equipment | 16 September, 2008

Not familiar with Mydata but will definitely go check them out, thanks.

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#56556

New to SMT Equipment | 17 September, 2008

You had mentioned that your volumes will be low? How about the mix? will you be changing over to different products a lot? How many different products will you be running? Will feeder setups be done by the operators or will you have a another department to assist and deliver pre-loaded setups to the line? Personally, I'm a Fuji guy, and I know I'm not alone on this. The only complaints I hear about Fuji (regarding their older, less expensive equipment) is that they take a bit longer to set up and the programming interface is offline. Some have the programming done at the machine which means you don't have to buy a seperate programming terminal. I would always recommend Fuji first. For you, to keep costs down, consider a CP4 and an IP3. You'll have 0402 capability and high precision IC placement. If you can afford a bit extra, consider a CP6 or a CP65 if your boards are a bit larger. You'll also need a programming computer with FujiCam, F4G, or Flexa to do the programming. Fuji's just don't die. They are rock solid. To quote a friend of mine, "The CP4 is a work-horse. It reliably shows up for work evey day and just doesn't quit" If you do a lot of change-overs, I would still try to work out staffing to accomodate a fuji line, but there are other manufacturers that specialize in high-mix low-volume such as the already mentioned MyData. Personally, I'll never touch a MyData again. When you see how robust a Fuji is built and compare it to plastic and nylon components in a MyData, there is no comparison. There are lots of Fuji pros out there and it's easy to find assistance if you need. The only people we could find who knew the MyData equipment was MyData. We had one for a while and it would not quit breaking down. MyData was unable to assist the repair without an insanely expensive service call. Also, the replacement parts are obsurdly expensive. We sold it and replaced it with an IP3. I would recommend looking at a Universal GSM before I recommended a MyData. I wish you luck in your search. I would recommend contacting the guys at IBE SMT equipment. They have been such a pleasure to work with. They will help with analysing your production needs and work with you to find a solution. We had them install our equipment and their service is excellent. Let me know how it goes.

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#56557

New to SMT Equipment | 17 September, 2008

At 250K / month, you may need a few Mydatas. They are great machines but not all that fast. Bottom line, without a BOM, size board or panel size, no one in their right mind can tell you what machine to go with. They can tell you what they like, but seriously making a suggestion without this knowledge is fruitless.

Your best bet is to hire someone with experience or look for a firm to help you in this area. Is your product just surface mount or is there further soldering of thru-hole? If so this process is generally slower than you surface mount and will play a role in your takt time. So why buy the world fastest placement machine when you secondary soldering takes 7 minutes to do a board?

Like buying a car or house, you need to do your homework depending on what your demands are. If time, thru-put, floor space and money are no problem for you I say buy the biggest fastest placement line you can find, purchase a house in the Swiss Alps and drive your flying submarine car to and from the Bahamas every day, where your 100 million cubic foot manufacturing plant is.

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#56558

New to SMT Equipment | 17 September, 2008

Don't forget repairing the boards all the special tips for the small parts sounds like you might be placing BGA may need a special machine just for reparing that. some places think they need x-ray for inspecting BGA. type of paste that you going to use. stencil makers. stencil claners. you might have a moisture sencative part so you might want a bag sealer or dry cabinet. feeder storage racks. might want to think about profiling your oven will you use on machine system or buy like a slimkik profiler system. we have universal advantis pick and place machines so far so good have had the nachines for about a year, 2 shifts 5 days a week. universal seem to have great service and quick parts delivery and made in the U.S.A. good luck

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#56559

New to SMT Equipment | 17 September, 2008

Your nick name might be wrongway but you definitely think the right way �made in USA�

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#56561

New to SMT Equipment | 17 September, 2008

We got over 500,000 placements per month with two Mydatas for three consecutive months.

And I want to say organized Fuji changeovers beat disorganized mydata changeovers. Even though Daxman is right that they can take a little longer to set up. In other words your process makes a much bigger difference to changeover times that the particular machine you buy.

I've worked with Fuji's before and they may have been solid but they were also persnickity.

The Mydatas we have here look and run like new even after three years. And my first introduction to mydatas was at a place that had bought a very used one not through mydata. I kept it running ok. They are very modular.

Overall I very much agree with RealChunks about hiring someone. If you can hire her, you would get your money's worth of expertise.

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#56562

New to SMT Equipment | 17 September, 2008

For the most part there would not be a lot of change over. There are two primary boards at this time that would be run on the line that also use common components. At this point all but a couple of the pick and place machines we have looked at have the capability to load all the feeders needed for both of these boards and leave them setup. Right now between these two boards there is about 50 components total used that would require a feeder. Of course as we add more boards there will be more change over but we try to utilize common components as much as possible. For the foreseeable future the feeder setup would most likely be done by the operator.

The boards are a mix of surface mount and through hole so that is definitely a consideration so there is not a backlog on the through hole end. We are also looking at adding a wave or selective solder but our primary focus at this time is the SMT time. We have been an OEM for 30 years and still sell boards that were designed in the mid '80s so through hole production will be a facture we have to consider for a while to come. Over time we will redesign some of these older boards to add more capability and convert to SMT but there are a number of them and most of these have low volumes so it's not going to be a priority.

I have heard great things about Fuji equipment and will definitely take a look at them. At this point we have not focused at all on them simply due to the fact that one has not been presented to us yet but I will look around.

Currently our boards that will be run on the line are within 3.5� x 4.5� size (components on both sides) but we would most likely look at panelizing them. The few other surface mount boards that we would run from time to time are small modules that are panelized and roughly 8.5� x 11� in size.

At this point we have avoided designing in BGA components for the exact reason mentioned, rework issues and costs. The primary reason we are even considering BGA at this time is one of the manufactures that we use is moving away from the QFP package and only offering BGA in their next rev. Of course we could go with another manufacturer but we like their offerings and most likely will have to do BGA at some point anyway.

Thank you everyone for your input, it definitely help.

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#56563

New to SMT Equipment | 17 September, 2008

What do you about Samsung CP45FV NEO pick and place?

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#56568

New to SMT Equipment | 17 September, 2008

I'll put a vote on MyData, but you might have problems with the volume... If you're buying used on this better off buying from MyData, they have a tendency to buy up the decent stuff off the used market, and anything left noone really wants to deal with. UIC is a good choice as well, and not too difficult to deal with on used machines.

On your printer, I would stay away from a 260! Hard to say exactly what you're getting (There were 3 basic configurations, 2 control systems, and at least 3 vision systems) and most are unsupportable on parts. If you're going with a Semi-auto (questionable with your volumes), look for a 248 (CE, the earlier version). But would think you would want full auto and be thinking about a DEK 265 GS / GSX / LT or a first generation Horizon. MPM AP25 / 27 would also be a good direction.

http://www.dekhead.com

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#56572

New to SMT Equipment | 18 September, 2008

"Your nick name might be wrongway but you definitely think the right way �made in USA�

Well I really like your mentality, but I would urge whomever is reading this thread to look into that statement a little further.(when it comes to pick and place equipment.) Just my humble opinion.

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#56585

New to SMT Equipment | 18 September, 2008

Oh no - I am not for hire. I do fine running my own company, but thanks for the complement.

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#56586

New to SMT Equipment | 18 September, 2008

When looking at surface mount equipment you also have to remember your line pull process. Wil you issue reel of parts or just strips? Most of the bigger machine cannot take strips of parts. What about your set-up? Will you have a dedicated top and bottom side? If so will you be able to pull same part reels for top and bottom? What kind of MRP system are you using? Will you need to keep track of parts today or sometime in the future? Many placement machine companies offer software to track component usage, scrap, etc. what about splicing reels? Will you need to splice on the fly? If so this will have a big impact on your choice of machine.

Secondary solder operations are a key factor as well. Like I said earlier why fly a product at light speed half way through your factory. Wave solder is a great way to mass solder parts. It can keep up with most surface mount lines. Selective is generally slow - really slow depending on how many points need to be soldered. Now when looking here, can you use selective wave solder pallets to accomplish your selective solder? this woul dbe the best of both worlds. That way you can solder all your "older stuff", keep up with your current stuff, and have process your product engineers can built towards.

Just a few idea. I like that you are looking and just not jumping on what everyone else likes to buy. I remember when there was a rage to buy the Yugo......

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