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mydata tp9 vs philips topaz

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im looking to buy a pick and place machine and right now the... - Nov 12, 2007 by chrisruizuci  

... - Nov 19, 2007 by Sr.Tech  

#52459

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 12 November, 2007

im looking to buy a pick and place machine and right now the two that have caught my eye are the Philips Topaz and the Mydata TP9. just tring to figure out which is better?

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#52470

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 12 November, 2007

I have never used a topaz but we are currently running a TP9. I can give you some feedback on a TP9 machine. Answer a few questions first and then I can tell you if I think the TP9 is a good fit for you.

What size components are you loading? Low or high mix of different circuit boards? Low or high volume? and/or How many componets per hour placement do you need?

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#52473

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 12 November, 2007

Smallest is 0603 and some 0402

High Mix PCB�s

Low Volume

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#52474

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 12 November, 2007

A philips Topaz is a good machine, I have accurately placed 0402's without a problem, Fine pitch QFP no problem, BGA's not a problem, I am not familiar with the TP9 so hopefully the other guy can answere questions on that, The Topaz is rated at about 11,500 components an hour but that would be an Ideal situation every feeder picking at 100% run speed and never switching nozzles, These machines are fast though. I have ran them for about 7 years and I like them. Assembleon has GREAT customer service and can walk you through just about any problem which you may encounter. GOOD LUCK.

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#52480

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 12 November, 2007

MyData TP9s

Work well in high mix applications because change over time from 1 job to the next can be done in as little as 15 minutes if you have the right mix of magazines/feeders.

Component placement rates vary depending on which component you are placing but run in the 1500-3000 cph range.

We are having good sucess placing 0402s and fine pitch QFPs with our machine. However, a good maintenance routine is necessary to keep it working well with these.

Customer support has been very good but the TP series is no longer in production. They are continuing to support it with all replacement parts still available as of now.

Overall I highly recommend MyData products but I may be a little biased because I have never used pick-n-place equipment from any other vendor.

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#52494

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 13 November, 2007

"Better" means different things to different users.

When we decided to upgrade I thought about a TP9 too but frankly it couldn't do much more than the Quads we already had. It just did it with a bigger footprint. We got a Topaz because we needed higher throughput with as good as or better accuracy and capability than we already had.

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#52526

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 15 November, 2007

Steve: In comparing TP9 with Topaz, what consideration did you give to tear-down / set-up time?

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#52530

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 15 November, 2007

Not much, actually, but that was by choice. We use the Quads for short runs and when we want to get set up and torn down quickly.

The Topaz was purchased specifically to give us the ability to get through our larger, regular jobs faster than we can on the Quads (by a factor of 4 or so). The one job that is currently our largest in terms of batch size and component count is run every two weeks, and we leave one FES cart set up for it. We also are seeing a quality improvement (and less time spent bumping) on boards coming out of the Topaz.

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ET

#52557

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 17 November, 2007

Hi,

I can give my opinion in this topic since I worked with both machines. To say the truth, I would recommend neither machine. First of all, operating software is much quite the same for both machines. The TP9 is true that has a larger footprint over the Topaz and is slightly slower in placement rate. Actual placement rate (maximum) for both machines is: TP9 4000cph (Single head) Topaz 7000cph (Optimised) believe me(8 Heads).

Then there is the Sony SI-F130 which place 0402 and 0603 very accurate and at an actual placement rate of 14000cph. Fortunately I have worked with several SMT Machinery and had to decide on what equipment to be bought for such components, I would opt for the Sony. They would be pleased to lease you a machine for your trials like they did with us. After all that is why I am recommending them as they prooved excellent in their support.

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#52562

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 18 November, 2007

It was apparent to me that because he was looking at a Topaz, not a Topaz X, and a TP, not a My9, that he's looking at older used machines. Is there a used Sony in a similar price range to the other two that will outperform them?

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#52570

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 19 November, 2007

I have very accurately placed 0402's and 0603's with a topaz, I am very happy with the Topaz, and people that aren't happy with them simply do not know how to use them properly. These machines are capable of alot, I am sure you can find something better out there, but for what cost? If you are looking for a good used machine, I would look at a Topaz.

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ET

#52573

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 19 November, 2007

People not knowing how to use them...surely not my case........I have worked for more than 7 years with a Topaz and always performed the maintenance and repairs on my own without the assistance of field service engineers!!! Please respect cause I know how to be rude and surely this is not the place for such comments. I know what I am talking about....yes the price might be quite near if you speak to Sony.It might be that they have Demo machines for sale.Surely I am not the person who can talk about prices. Tell us about the cost of spares cause surely he will need spares. How much a head costs for a Topaz??If I am not wrong some 1500Eur or more?? So let us speak about real facts.

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#52574

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 19 November, 2007

Be aware that there is a significant difference between TP9 2U's and TP9 UFP's.

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#52575

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 19 November, 2007

#52578

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 19 November, 2007

I was not trying to imply that you didn't know how to run these machines I was simply saying that alot of problems that people may encounter can be solved with operating them correctly, I am sorry if you took offense to this, I too have performed all of my own maintenance. It is true that a new Head may cost that much, but now I must return the question to you, how many of these have you Ever had to replace? I haven't had to replace one yet, as far as spares that he may acctually need to consider, nozzles rainge in the several hundred dollars, valves ie speed, head up/down are, depending on the one needed in the rainge of 160-320 bucks a piece. but tearing these valves apart and cleaning them (which most of the time fixes the problem) is not that hard. I am not familiar with how much these parts may cost for a Sony. before your So quick to get offended, you need to realize that I was posting to help this person make a good decision, and opinions are like A-holes everyone has one....I simply am saying that MY EXPERIENCE with a Topaz has been a good one, now yours may be different, and I respect your opinion. Sorry If I offended you, It surely wasn't my intention.

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#52579

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 19 November, 2007

Whatever you decide to do, make sure the machine you get meets your requirements for capability as well as cost.

We've now got three machines referenced, all with vastly different capabilities, some of which you may have to sacrifice to get the others (component size for component throughput, for instance).

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ET

#52613

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 21 November, 2007

To answer your question: During my experience with Topaz machines, we had to replace 4 Heads on different occassions with different operators involved. Also I encountered several Head crashes with Eclipse machines. To buy such replacements here in Malta costs too much.To give you an example, on the used equipment section there was a complete machine Eclipse for sale at 5000USD. To replace a Head 1 Shaft cost 1500EUR. I know with proofs that should it be possible for us to order directly from Yamaha, it would have cost us much much less. Spares from Sony are much less. Nozzles for example cost half the price of Assembleon's.

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#52687

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 28 November, 2007

I have some alternatives that match up well spec wise with these two models. They are factory refurbished machines priced for quick sale. Contact me if you would like more info. Greg

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#52711

mydata tp9 vs philips topaz | 30 November, 2007

ET,

With due regards to your '7 years experience', I must say that in my 11 years experience, this is the first time I am hearing about head replacement on a Topaz. On the Eclipse it is easy for an operator to make a mistake by moving the head manually (with emergency on), which would allow the head to keep going down since the servo is disabled and it might hit against the conveyor or anything else. But on the Topaz - never heard of it.

I am Assembleon's rep. for the Indian subcontinent and have over 120 machines installed in this region and I have never seen a head replacement being done on a Topaz!

Enough deviation from the topic I guess. I won't indulge in sales talk, but technically I would rate Topaz much higher than the TP9 on the productivity, ease of maintenance (as Wayne mentioned beautifully), longevity (Mydata's are primarily prototype equipment not for 24 hour production), and of course - Assembleon's customer support.

Regards Vinit

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