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SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


What to buy

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Hey Guys, We are looking to set up a line to manufacture lo... - Mar 04, 2007 by

Have you considered used equipment? We have several options... - Mar 05, 2007 by Jason Robotham - Tekmart  

alphamoose

#48142

What to buy | 4 March, 2007

Hey Guys, We are looking to set up a line to manufacture low volume high mix PCBs. We have work in the display technology and military sectors. Part tracking, lot tracking are critical. The machine may also end up in a class 10,000 or 1000 clean room so size is an issue. We are looking at Mydata, Mimot, Contact, Assembleon and Universal. We like the Mydata because of the small size of the feeders (easy to store in the cleanroom) but the machine is larger than some of the others. If you were setting up the line how would you go and why?

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Jason Robotham - Tekmart

#48174

What to buy | 5 March, 2007

Have you considered used equipment? We have several options you may want to consider;

- 1999 MPM UP 2000/A HiE + 2003 UIC HSP 4797L + 1999 UIC GSM2

- 1997 Panasonic SPPV + 1997 or 2000 Panasonic MV2F + 1996 MPA-3F

- 1998 Dek 265 GSX + 2001 Siemens 80 S20 + 1999 Siemens 80 F4

Please e-mail jason@tekmart.com if you are interested in reviewing our pre-owned equipment inventory.

Thanks, Jason

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#48177

What to buy | 5 March, 2007

If it might go in a clean room you will want to look at if the system cuts the paper tapes. In the old days there was no vacuum at the cutter and around the machine would accumulate white dust from the machine cutting the tape for each component. The Mydata does not cut the component tapes, I don't know about the others. Even with a vaccuum at the cutter, I think you would still have a problem with dust accumulating over time.

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#48210

What to buy | 6 March, 2007

You cannot put these machines in a clean room enviornment, but if you must go with the MYdata a Philips Assembleon. They are easy to program and changeover a simple. Foot print should suit your needs. Where are you located?

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#48260

What to buy | 8 March, 2007

At the risk of being lambasted the Contact machines are very easy to program and have double the feeder capacity in a much smaller footprint. Please don't hate me.

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Grant

#48276

What to buy | 9 March, 2007

Hi,

There you go again, no experienced user advice, just sales stuff.

Grant

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#48277

What to buy | 9 March, 2007

no offense Grant--I was designing P & P equipment and vehemently studying competition when your mother was still wiping your nose...I was just responding to the previous comment about footprint and feeder capacity--for which there is no equal to the C5--period

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Rob

#48282

What to buy | 9 March, 2007

Why would you want one of these in your clean room?

http://www.sinclairc5.com/

I suppose less people would see you....

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#48284

What to buy | 9 March, 2007

Give Greg a break.....

Someone actually stopped by his booth this year at APEX thus he feels it's time to jump back into the forums while the gettins' good.

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#48286

What to buy | 9 March, 2007

Not affiliated with Contact in any way, but we do have 2 3AV machines, as well as a 3S. I've been operating/managing these machines for 11 years and we haven't gotten a build yet that we couldn't do. Are there occasionally strange components that we can't pass vision? Sure, but it's the exception, not the rule. If you can print down to 16mil, you can easily place it with these machines. BGAs, no problem with the front lighting. I don't have personal experience with the other machine types being considered, but I do know that the contact machines have done us well. Over the many years we've had them they've made us a lot of money. Especially with a good used one with tons of feeders coming in at under 100k, you'd do yourself a disservice not having a good look at them.

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#48289

What to buy | 9 March, 2007

I must have missed your booth. Oh, that's right...you didn't have one. Only the "real" scum of the earth equipment brokers were there. I guess you're not quite there yet. What cracks me up is how the parasites that never created a product before feel a sense of entitlement just because they can match some piece equipment to some customer. Any moron with a third grade education can do that.

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#48290

What to buy | 9 March, 2007

Rob, My UK distributor told me the C5 model name would be an issue over there but I didn't think it would be the same guy bringing it up over and over. They actually look like a lot of fun. What went wrong with the sinclair?

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oldsmtdude

#48292

What to buy | 9 March, 2007

I would concur about clean room problems especially with a high mix changeover environment.

Paper tape is horribly dusty and just the cover tape pulling away generates a lot of dust.

There was a day when everyone said paper was on the way out for that reason. Too bad the plastic embossed tape isn't high enough accuracy for the smallest of chips.

This message was posted Add this forum to your site! Click to learn more. the Electronics Forum @

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Mark

#48293

What to buy | 9 March, 2007

hello,

I would consider essemtec machines visit http://www.essemtec.com, thay are extremly flexible and have lot of tracability features. with cleanroom and smt machines this is very tricky. I would separate smt from cleanroom.

mark

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Cmiller

#48306

What to buy | 10 March, 2007

If you need part tracking and lot tracking your decision may be made for you. I believe the Universal equimpment has complete traceability, it is an option. You scan a reel each time you load it onto a feeder and it can track what parts from which reels go on each board. I do not believe any of the other systems has the capability to do this but I may be incorrect. I would talk to each vendor very specificaly about this issue. We have Universal lines but do not use this feature. I personally belive them to be far superior to the other brands you listed but thats just my opinion, based on extensive experience. We are a high mix, low to mid volume EMS house.

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#48315

What to buy | 11 March, 2007

I hope I don't get negative reaction again but I can't let this one go. The Contact Systems machine (C5) has level 4 traceability. There is no standard that defines traceability but Aegis Software Corporation defines four distinct levels of traceability. We were visited by an Aegis engineer for some additional training on Circuit Cam and during our discussions he led us to beleive that we were the only company with the full four levels. He said alot of the other vendors claim traceability but most are only levels one, two or three. In fact we go one step further than the level four and actually track the operator who is logged in when the board is built.

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#48318

What to buy | 11 March, 2007

These guys claimed to have level 6 traceability.....and look where that got them.

http://www.sinclairc5.com/

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Rob

#48321

What to buy | 12 March, 2007

Hi Greg,

I only wheel it out periodically when you go for a seasonal bout of free advertising!

It was a compromise trying to be all things to all people, whilst fitting in with electric cycle legislation to avoid the age barriers and car requirements. People were too scared to mix it on the roads with traffic and it wasn't allowed on the footpath. It sank bigtime. Shame as the inventor is an amazing bloke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Sinclair

Same time & place next year for another discussion?

Rob.

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#48332

What to buy | 12 March, 2007

Universal does have a closed loop Traceability system (down to ref ID, per circuit if desired) that has enabled customers to gain FDA, and Military certification.

Be aware that some "traceability" schemes do not access the actual machine code, and only interface with the placement machine via an estop or SMEMA control.

thx vickt

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Go Figure

#48334

What to buy | 12 March, 2007

Grant

#48341

What to buy | 12 March, 2007

Hi,

> no offense Grant--I was designing P & P equipment and vehemently studying > competition when your mother was still wiping your nose...I was just ? >responding to the previous comment about footprint and feeder capacity--for > which there is no equal to the C5--period

Your kidding right. Someone dares question your constant advertising posts on this forum, and so your solution is to post an condescending insult like this? That's smart.

I think the reason no one has ever heard of your company, apart from readers of this forum who have to constantly listen to your advertising posts every time someone asks for USER ADVISE on machine experiences, is because you're crap at marketing. Anyone who knows anything about marketing would do a better job than posting on forums to get attention.

I guess that's why your not one of the big machine vendors, and no one uses your products outside of some small US companies.

If you have been designing P & P machines since before I was born, then you must be fairly old now, and it's amazing your company has not done a lot better given the length of time you have had to build it. That's has failure written all over it.

Then again I am not sure that being incredibly old is much benefit when it comes to technology, as my parents still have problems using a web browser.

Regards,

Grant

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#48347

What to buy | 12 March, 2007

Grant, This is the last thing I will say in this thread. I truly try in all of my responses to add information regarding the original post or a subsequent question in the thread. If the information is about my product it sends guys like you off the deep end. Then you add more misinformation forcing me to correct you. Let's face it...you don't know me, my company or my products so don't comment on them. If you do then you are one of the very people you complain about.

Yes, we are not a big company and beleive it or not there are some advantages to that. But we have installations of our equipment all over the world. If I perk up to point out something about my product that is relevant to the original post I think it is considered useful information to some people and not "constant advertising" as you say. What's not useful is when you perk up and start the useless spinoff's I find myself addressing this very moment. I will not now nor will I ever let someone misinform this forum about my company or my product without a response. It is irresponsible on your part to comment on things you don't know about and makes me wonder about your other posts which I used to read and assume were truthful and unbiased. Based on your comments about my company recently I question the accuracy of your information altogether. Up to a few days ago I had no issues with you but your comments set me off. I apologize for this and truly wish you and Black Magic the best going forward.

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#48352

What to buy | 13 March, 2007

Hi,

That's great, and there are better ways to advertise, such as banner adds, and trade shows etc. You also have no idea who I am and cannot just blow be off as someone young, as you did, so you can understand why that's annoying.

Good luck with your company, and I am glad your going to keep your posts on the forum to useful stuff, rather than advertising, as then it's a cleaner forum that has really informative replies. I have always loved the SMT NET forum because it has real people who use and purchase equpment on it. I hope it stays that way.

Regards,

Grant

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Base

#48430

What to buy | 15 March, 2007

Last year I was told by an Assembleon engineer that they sold a bunch of MG machines to a previously Universal-house. They (US-based, forgot their name) kicked out their Universals because the tracability system was missing beats. Something you may want to get into...

(and to prevent a slashing like Greg gets everytime he hops on: I have no affiliation with assembleon, just know their stuff (among others) and like it)

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Cmiller

#48450

What to buy | 16 March, 2007

Thats interesting, I was told by people at Assembleon that the Lightning head from Universal does not work as advertised and that they have a lot of problems in the field. I went to New York to look at it, looked great. Talked to everyone I could find that had one, they loved them. Have now bought two of them, have had no issues. Oldest one has been here about a year and a half. Also found in my research that Assembleon was selling new Topaz machines for about half what they quoted me which is one of the reasons I did not choose them. I have an older Topaz, its a pretty decent machine but I dont appreciate the way they do business or thier planned obsolesence of equipment and lack of upgrade potential or the fact that they assume you will stay with them if you already have thier machines and they can rape you. I dont work for Universal and get no benefit from this.

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#48454

What to buy | 16 March, 2007

Craig-

Pretty much every equipment vendor is guilty of what Assembleon did to you. When they think you are committed to their platform OR you are small potatoes to them.....they will hammer you on pricing. It's always been that way and they all do it. If you are smart you see right through it. If not......

This business is no different than the auto industry. For every 5 buyers that buy a new car at invoice there are 10 that will buy at MSRP.

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DRT

#48455

What to buy | 16 March, 2007

If you go the Assembleon Route. Do yourself a favor and compare the Yamaha brand machines Specs and prices to see for yourself what value is being brought to the table.

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James

#48459

What to buy | 16 March, 2007

This shows once again that this "what to buy?" and "What do you think about this machine..." crap really has no place in this Forum in my opinion. People have to get off their ass and do some investigating on their own. You have to be living under a rock if you do not know the top 10 companies supplying pick and place machines to the PCB assembly industry. 10, not 100, not 1,000. There are really only about 10. Then it doesn't take long to whittle that list down to 5 or so based on that machine mfr�s core competencies, specifications or their machines and price point. Printers, heck you�ve got like 3 or 4, dispensers, 2 or 3, ovens, the top 10 applies again. First, what are your requirements for a machine. That's where to start. If you don�t know what your needs are, just about any of the top 10 guys can come in and visit and you, show them your boards ands they�ll ask a bunch of questions, and �bam�, they�ll make reccoemendations for you. Now, the rule is when it comes to sales types, �trust but verify�. Anybody that brings a major machine like a p&p or automatic solderpaste printer into thier factory without testing it at the mfr�s site before placing an order or before it ships to thier factory is a fool in my opinion. If your have different applications than some poster here, then you get bad advice. All the major equipment companies would be happy to visit and explain their machines, answer questions, let you test drive them, speak to their customers about after sale support, etc...... Why you would take the "opinion" of anybody in this forum on a machine baffles me. You don't know were they are from a lot of the time. These types of questions open up the Forum to sales types, people with axes to grind about one machine company, and propaganda, rumor and innuendo. Anybody researching equipment for their company should do so in a professional manner and discount �opinions� of others on this Forum.

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Cmiller

#48463

What to buy | 16 March, 2007

James, I respectfully disagree with you. Rick, you are correct. Personaly I liked that Universal published prices for their machines a few years ago. Im not sure if they still do and there may still be "deals" to be made. If someone was buying ten of them, I assume they may get a better price, they should. When the baseline is not even set, that bothers me. MSRP can very by 50% depending who you are? I strongly believe when you buy a machine you should consider how much you can sell it for if necessary. I am happy with my Universal equipment. They have been great. There are plenty of other great machines as well. We do a lot of changeover and use a lot of fixed feeders so the single pick lightning head is a better and faster machine for us because we cant take the time to move feeders to do gang picks. There are other options. I looked at many. I got some great advice off this forum when we were looking expecially from Grant. I did look at the machines, I did run demo's on the ones I thought made the cut and I did do follow up emails with Grant and others on thier advise and got in depth info to asses their competancy. No one should blinly follow anyones opinions, my point would be the manufacturer will tell you what you want to hear, if you hear the same thing from the users, thats a good sign. If you dont, be carefull. Do your own homework though, you are the one who has to live with the decision. When someone asks what the difference between Fuji and MyData, Come on!!! The same as the difference in a golf cart and a jet airplane. In price, speed and complexity. The prices of the tier one stuff keeps getting better and people looking at the lower end stuff should at least know they may be able to afford it. Anyone who has run Fuji, Siemens, Universal and the lower end stuff knows the difference.

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Base

#48477

What to buy | 19 March, 2007

One of the requirements was traceability so I commented on that. I didn't comment on the Lightning head or on pricing policies. The lighting head has been sold many times and I have not heard of any user that kicks it back to Universal. Pricing policies are a game between you and the vendor.

The thing is that when users start sending back machines because the supporting software doesn't work as advertised there may be something wrong. I heard it from a techsupport guy who installed the Assmebleon equipment, not from a sales snake. Of course the Volvo sales guy will tell you the Mercedes airbags suck (or blow for that matter). I wouldn't take his word for it. I belive the guy with the badly extended nosebleed because his airbag didn't do the job right and bought the other car because of it.

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