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Chinese Wave Solder Machines

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I work for a company importing Wave Solder Machines from Chi... - Nov 21, 2006 by Bill West  

#45323

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 21 November, 2006

I work for a company importing Wave Solder Machines from China, and I continue to be amazed at how many new importers I run into. Many of which have not sold more than one or two machines. I'm looking to try to come up with a list.

Who do you know that is importing machines? Please include link if you have it.

Bill www.ietechnology.net

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Kerwin Hooshey

#45326

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 21 November, 2006

If you get a Chinese Wave Solder Machine, you'd have to solder your assembly again a half hour later.

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#45330

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 21 November, 2006

I've been doing this for a year and a half, and that is the best one I have heard. LOL.

By the way, in my experience, the boards have stayed soldered. Whenever I am in China though, I am alwasy hungry...

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greg york

#45335

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 21 November, 2006

Serious question here, why do all the Lead Free Chinese Wave Soldering machines I have seen come in set at 5 Degrees angle - It doesn't work and bridges all over the place until th eangle is changeds. Are you guys finding this? Thanks Greg York

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#45337

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 21 November, 2006

Most machines for lead free have adjustable conveyor angles (4 to 8 degrees). In the good ole days with lead, we typically ran at about 6 degrees. Often we see closer to 4 degrees with lead free. This is very common, and provides longer immersion time (the board is in the wave longer, and comes out of the wave further towards the back). Longer immersion times are required for lead free. I would not generally agree with this causing more shorts, I would expect other process related issues causing this.

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greg york

#45648

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 27 November, 2006

Sorry Bill

We have filled and supported over 250 Lead free machines now and have actually moved the angle back to 7 degrees the same as Leaded and the bridging problems have gone away.Dwell times are only fractionally longer and results are very good with excellent hole fill and no excessive dwell times killing the laminate and this is with low sac alloy. Guess most of the angles were lowered because theoretically this is what industry thought was required not in our pratical experiance, try it it works and the boards dont delaminate Best regards Greg York

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#45649

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 27 November, 2006

Greg, I'm intrigued. Where have you had a chance to install and support over 250 machines? Thanks for the tips, we'll try this out.

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greg york

#45650

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 27 November, 2006

Hi Bill Mostly in the UK, but originally saw the problem when I helped on one install in Malta on a chinese mc set at 5 degrees and had nightmare bridging. changed the angle to 6.5 ish and results were instantly better actually better than what they had off their Leaded process, believe it or not. Seen it many times since and now travel with digital protractor to confirm angle as it is crucial and really does work. Settings are no different than leaded processing. I guess the large amount of tin makes a significant difference on wetting seeing as lead in the old solder didn't wet to copper.So only reliant on 63% tin doing all the work is my guess. Thank goodness for the EU - they will probably ban copper next and stuff us all up. cheers greg york

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RDR

#45651

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 27 November, 2006

That must have been what the conveyor angle was on the machine they copied, remember that the Chinese do not know the engineering on equipment only how to "copy it"

Russ

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#45652

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 27 November, 2006

Russ, I felt the same way before I took the job doing this, and actually only took the job after taking a weeks vacation to look at the machine. There is certainly some truth to Chinese companies basing thier engineering on existing well known suppliers. BUT, I would have to say "watch out". The Chinese are not interested in just copying, they are highly motivated to engineer and improve, and they will. Keep your eyes open...

In particular, the company I work closely with http://www.jt-ele.com has come out with the 3rd generation reflow oven and it has eval'd against BTU and Vitronics, and has won on several occassions.

Bill www.ietechnology.net

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#45713

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 28 November, 2006

Hi,

I have seen some made in China stuff, and it's well built. I don't know why a few people criticize the China made stuff, as they are working hard to make better product.

I think the bigger crime is good brands that get so caught up in the corporate thing, that they realize they can get that share price up if they cut research and development of new products and innovations. I think a lot of western companies have forgotten how to make products, and are so caught up in share prices, and brand penetration, that the products really suffer. Then it's little wonder other people get an opening to beat the traditional suppliers.

I think it's interesting that people criticize some well known companies for poor support, and overpriced spares, but then also criticize the chinese companies when they make affordable product.

I have never seen an company that could not be world leading, and growing well if the management focused on building a company of creative people working together to try new things, and to innovate. I think a lot of companies have forgotten how to innovate, as the management get caught up in self made bureaucracy and all sit behind spreadsheets all day. We get people in our company from larger companies, and we need to de program them so they actually get something useful done.

Regards,

Grant

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RDR

#45718

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 28 November, 2006

interesting Bill, will keep an eye out.

Was not necessarily saying anything about Chinese product, just the engineering, I have seen a few Chinese "Vitronics" ovens and yes they seemed to be put together very well, I was only mentioning how it/they was/are a clone of the original at a much lower cost. Always have concern about there troubleshooting and engineering when issue arises.

Russ

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#45719

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 28 November, 2006

I do need to agree with you. There are definetly clones out there. Som look identical on the outside. And there could be serious concerns about support. One bad hard drive can turn a machine into scrap if you can not get s/w or support. People need to be very careful about what they buy. We have seen people buy machines for real cheap, ...and never get them into production... This is not a cost saviings.

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Kerwin Hooshey

#45724

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 28 November, 2006

Grant, but that doesn't change the fact that you have to run the board again a half-hour-later...hahaha.

Also, the Chinese are FAR from being innovators...rather, they're out-of-control "immitators" of products, breaking patent laws and reverse engineering existing products left-and-right. would you purchase a Chinese made and engineered vehicle?? I wouldn't. Not to mention, the poor 8 year old boy who had to assemble the 500 lb. solder pot.... The chinese are basically going through the same growing pains as post WWII Japan has. Maybe 10-20 years down the road, they'll start being innovators...

Now...within your OWN company, yes...it sounds like you've got lots of issues. At my own company, we've also got our share of dead weight and people not-adding value...

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#45725

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 28 November, 2006

I had no idea what this thread would result in.... But, since we are on the "made in China" kick...

There is serious immitation going on, that is true. But that will not be the case long term. There are already companies innovating, there is technology that is developed there. It is not a 3rd world country. They are not going to go away, we should prepare and compete where we can, and partner where it makes sense.

As for a Chinese Car, ...there not that bad, and did some of us say that about Japanese cars 20 years ago??? What do you drive today? I drive a Ford, but I think it will be my last one.

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Steve

#45727

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 28 November, 2006

Well said. From my experience, the Chinese would ship out of spec. product knowing full well it does not meet the requirement. If we catch it, good for us . . . otherwise we are #@%$%#. The Japanese (and others) on the other hand would rather pull their hairs out before shipping a product with a quality issue.

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Rob

#45807

Chinese Wave Solder Machines | 30 November, 2006

The Chinese make lots of things well, and a few percentage of things badly, as do many companies in Europe, US etc. However... as China is so large, that small percentage equates to a lot of product.

Just do your homework on any equipment before you buy it like you always should - we tend to get lazy the larger the comapnies we work for, and the bigger the budget.

As for Chinese cars.. in general they are cheap, crap and utilitarian, but so are the roads they drive on, however there is NO excuse for the crud that the US motor industry still churns out from certain brands....

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