Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design SMT Electronics Assembly Manufacturing Forum

Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.


MPM UP2000 Hi-e

Views: 10058

We are looking into purchasing a used UP-2000 Hi-e. We are ... - Aug 28, 2006 by Sr.Tech  

#43616

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 28 August, 2006

We are looking into purchasing a used UP-2000 Hi-e. We are high mix /high change-over. The machines I am looking at are equipped with the grid-lok system.

Can anyone give me pros's/ con's ??

Thanks in advance.

Sr.

reply »

#43630

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 28 August, 2006

Would be my pick if I was putting a line together and was buying used. You should be paying around $35K-$40K and no more for such a machine.

As far as grid-lock...........I'd probably toss that system in the garbage.

reply »

#43639

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 29 August, 2006

What negative experiences have you had with the Gridlok system ? Just curious

reply »

pr

#43642

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 29 August, 2006

me sweat like pig trying to get gridlwock to werk.

reply »

Chunks

#43643

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 29 August, 2006

With the UP2000 that has vacuum board hold down, the Grid Loc hoses defeat the vacuum in order for them to exit the work table. Big boards require more girds, thus more hoses. Set-up between large and small boards takes time to remove or add the grids. Getting initial set-up required the operator to place big bean bags on the board. If the operator didn't have a big bean bag then they had to hold the board down with their hands. On larger boards or multi-up boards, the board would flex down and defeat the purpose of the Grid-Loc. Thus, having multiple bean bags on the your board or one big bean bag had a big affect on your print.

We had 1 misprint outta about every 5 because the Grid-Loc would hit on an IC leg or half on/off a part. This would cause the board to move. Not all ICs and parts reflow in the exact same spot, thus causing the board to slip. Perhaps if we had side clamps this would be mute point.

reply »

pr

#43645

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 29 August, 2006

WOW, for having never spent more than a drive by with the units and NEVER having set it up or used it, you are a wealth of info. who say's you can't learn anything from the fine smtnet archives? You definately have bean bags on the chin (mind) cause they were never used and the 1 in 5 misprints never happened (again thanks archives) but it sounds good, so you run with it. I only trialed the things and they worked great during the trial, as for long term I don't know about reliability. I do see Chunks signing my name to several silly posts in reference to these so I thought I'd clear the air.

reply »

#43646

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 29 August, 2006

Dude:

I have used the Grid-lok system before, in DEK 265 and DEK Infinity printers (clamps) and they worked quite well. But, we did have the side clamps. I'm not sure how that translates to an MPM. They were the best we could find as far as the "quick set up" stuff. Good luck.

reply »

#43647

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 29 August, 2006

We run a lot of double sided boards. So I need a printer that will handle warped boards well.

Can anyone tell me which printers work better on warped boards ?

Our AP25's are crap on warped boards. If I had a penny for every time our cameras got knocked off I would be a millionare.

reply »

#43648

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 29 August, 2006

We get crappy warped boards all the time. Our DEK (Viking) seems to handle them very well, no issues.

reply »

Bubba

#43654

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 29 August, 2006

You need a machine with side clamps. DEK makes them. MPM makes them.

Look into a retro for your machine. Both take up space on top of your board. Be carefull of top side component clerance if switching.

reply »

#43658

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 30 August, 2006

Keep in mind; if you're building warped or twisted boards, do NOT use the Grid-lok system on them, as they tend to conform to the bend or twist of the underside of the PCB, so it will not flatten or straighten out much at all when it's brought to the stencil.

reply »

#43661

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 30 August, 2006

The reason I asked earlier about Gridlok is that we are using the on 2 Dek Horizon printers (since Jan 06) with edge clamps and they work well. We run them in Auto mode so they conform to the board at each print so I do not have to worry about the operators having to think. As far as warped boards (usually for 2nd pass) I find the flattest board for the job and set the Gridlok supports in a fixed postion for that run. I may have to jack with the squeege speed and pressure a little but I can get good prints. By the way we are using proflow heads.

reply »

#43667

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 30 August, 2006

I would recommend the UP2000 HiE. This would more than handle what you have describe. If you have a lot of warped boards, the side clamp retro might be for you. I haven't had much production experience with the grid lock, but I know of several people who don't like it.

Fastek, that price is a little low. If you want a refurbed and calibrated HiE, I think they are more like 50k.

pr, How could you grill Chunks like that? She's quite helpful around here. You should try deep breathes.

pr

reply »

#43679

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 30 August, 2006

> We are looking into purchasing a used UP-2000 > Hi-e. We are high mix /high change-over. The > machines I am looking at are equipped with the > grid-lok system. > > Can anyone give me pros's/ > con's ?? > > Thanks in advance. > > Sr.

Hi Sr Tech, We are please to quote you on the abovemention machine as follows;

1 unit Screen Printer USD$35,000.00 Model : MPM UP2000HIE Vintage : 1998 Under Wiper System

Shipping Terms : Ex-works Machine Condition : Working Condition Payment Term : 100% Payment Before machine Collection

Hope that the above quotation meet your requirement and hope to hear your most favourable reply.

Thanks & Regards Jasmine

reply »

#43680

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 31 August, 2006

Hi Sr Tech, You can contact by email address : sales@baoding.com.sg for the quotation that i send to you earlier.

Thanks & Regards Jasmine

reply »

Chim R.

#43686

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 31 August, 2006

Sounds like pr has some anger management issues. I like that! He's got a fire under his belly.

reply »

#43690

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 31 August, 2006

Jasmine, this really isn't the place for selling machines. Let's keep it technical baby.

reply »

#43691

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 31 August, 2006

Alright then, be like that.

reply »

Chim R.

#43692

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 31 August, 2006

Hahaha. "Baby." Funny, Chris.

Jasmine, Chris is correct. A female going into this forum of lonely, socially-inept male Engineers is like a Gazelle going into a lion's den.

reply »

#43701

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 31 August, 2006

Chris-

I was actually being generous in my pricing assessment. They can actually be had for as low as $25K with a little searching.

Of course if someone bought a used one from Speedline then $50K or north of that would be the norm.

reply »

#43708

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 31 August, 2006

Fastek,

You are correct. I know of machines you can get for 25k that are in working condition. But if I was going to buy one used, I would want it refurbished and calibrated. I would also be interested in support and warranty. I don't know of anyone offering that for 25k or 30k.

The company I work for does refurbs. I keep track of our competition, and we usually price our machines lower than the rest. Our HiE's are usually 35k to 50k depending on options, cycles, etc. Our refurb. program is also way more extensive than our competitors. Plus they are completely painted, with warranties and support. Anyway, not trying to brag but you have to be careful buying on the used market. A lot of companies don't come through with their claims. I would be surprised to see a company provide this level of machine at 25k. But I'm not trying to argue, you are pretty much the man in this forum.

reply »

#43710

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 31 August, 2006

A couple things on the Grid-Lok system. They now offer a top-side edge clamping system. The edge clamping system works very well for warped, twisted boards etc.. Using this system in the auto mode also allows the pins to contour to the geography of each board presented. It is light years ahead of a standard vacuum tooling box and is excellent for high-mix situations or dedicated lines. The change over is fast and repeatable.

As far as pricing goes I don't know anyone who sells production ready UP 2000 hi E printers for $25K. If you are, then you wouldn't be in business very long. If you are selling them for $25k and they are production ready give me a call. I'll take every single one. Last time I checked you weren't the cheapest dealer on the market.

reply »

#43711

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 31 August, 2006

I don't sell them for $25K either but my point is they can be had for that price. In fact the last (2) that I had I purchased for $8K and $9K.

I never have claimed to be the cheapest dealer around and it's not my intention......I only intend to be competitive.

You on the other hand appear to win the distinction of being the dealer who "pays the most" for your equipment based on your remarks. Congrads! I'll make a note of that for the future.

I still stand by my first statement and say that anyone who pays $50K for this printer from anyone besides Speedline should not be buying equipment for their respective company, although I'm sure Chris' firm does a wonderful job of cleaning them up and painting them. And who is it you work for by the way Chris that makes you guys such experts on MPM's?

reply »

#43714

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 1 September, 2006

How many of these printers have sold in the last three years? I have sold over 40 in the last 18 months. You can claim all the numbers you want. If you have the units to sell at $25K; then sell them. If you are selling them at $25K, you are selling shit; and you know it. The real term for "competitive dealer" is broker. You don't stock or service anything. You don't refurbish or calibrate anything. You take a picture and text from an e-mail and mark it up. Spare us your diatribe on cost when you don't even have the ability to offer refurbished equipment. Anyone can send an e-mail with picture of a machine along with a price.

reply »

Rico

#43721

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 1 September, 2006

Jasmine,

I'm interested in your products. Please email me a picture of yourself to "solidfy" the sale. Thanks in advanced.

reply »

#43726

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 1 September, 2006

Bradley...Bradley...don't get your panties in a bunch.

I have been a stocking dealer in this business way ...and I mean way before you ever uttered the words Surface Mount.

How long have you been in this business? 3 years?

Keep trying to sell your "refurbed" printers for $54,000. There's always a sucker or two who will believe your B.S.

These new brokers never fail to amaze me.....they think the business began when THEY decided to get into it.

reply »

#43727

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 1 September, 2006

H ilarious. E ven tho I don't come here much, it's the same old thing. R eplayed questions, answered by self righteous people. B ut several people told me to check out this thread.

P erhaps they are right. A lthough it�s the same old people bantering the gizmos. B lown up egos going head to head is fun reading. E specially when they are barking up the wrong tree. S o, are you picking up what I�m typing down pr?

reply »

pr

#43729

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 1 September, 2006

OOPS! Remind me filet to a flip, when I come to town!

reply »

#43733

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 1 September, 2006

Fastek-

From the sound of the attitude, you must be competition. And trust me, we do much more than clean them up and paint. How about you? But thanks for the sarcasm.

And when you've refurbished a hundred MPM's, you tend to become an expert. And by the way, Cardinal is right about pricing. If you want a refurbed machine that will last in any challenging production environment, you can forget about 25k. I prefer running boards on calibrated equipment.

reply »

#43735

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 2 September, 2006

We have decided to go with a UP2000 Hi-e with the newer generation Grid lok. This is a refurbed machine with a warranty.

reply »

C.K.

#43747

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 4 September, 2006

Grid Loks & Gels ain't my forte, but when it comes to JNJ Support Plates for the MPM, (http://www.jnj-ndustries.com/PDFFiles/Techno%20Talk/Vol.%20VI%20-%20WEB%202003.pdf) and Quantum Physics....I'm your man.

reply »

Bill

#43766

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 5 September, 2006

Thinking about this auto-mode on Grid-Lok..... Ok, the board is warped, lets say positively, the pins conform to the warped board... what about the effect on top side and squeegee pressure? It will be much higher and could damage stencils, right? Possible, yes? In my view, hard tooling- support pins that hold a fixed distance from the printer center nest to the edge-rail that the board is on is a superior method to deliver uniform print pressure. I want the warped board to be pressed back to as flat as possible when the stencil comes down over it , or board comes up to the stencil. The goal is for even and consistant print pressures from board to board. Plus, Grid-Lok really only works well for machines with "over-the-top" board clamps, like DEK and MPM AccuFlex have. Dedicated board support tooling with vacuum holdown provides the best support and static fixed pins I'd say comes in second- in terms of quality of support for best printing results for machines with edge clamping board securing mechanisms or plain vacuum.

Just my thoughts on it.

reply »

Doug Eidle

#43791

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 7 September, 2006

Hi, First off, I am the Pre Owned Equip. Business Mgr. for Speedline Technologies. We have a factory Renewed (our enhanced refurbishment process) available. You can contact your local Speedline MPM Rep for price and information. If board warp is an issue we have a new model in the UP2000NT line, the UP2000Elite. It features an optional top clamp along with our traditional vacuum nest. A number of board support options are offered including; GelFlex, Vacunestand Grid-Lock. If you want to discuss risk assessment on the secondary market feel free to contact me. You will find my contact information on our web site under the Pre Owned Equipment area.

reply »

#43794

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 7 September, 2006

Doug, Could you please explain what you mean by "risk assessment on the secondary market".

Thanks

reply »

#43795

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 7 September, 2006

C.K.

Your link does not work.

reply »

#43806

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 7 September, 2006

Rick,

I didn't mean for this to turn into a big thing thing but a couple of points. 1. I have in this business for over ten years. 2. Speedline sells refurbed units for over $75K 3. If you think it is "BS" come to my facility and check it out. 4. I still haven't seen my quote for the UP 2000 Hi E's at $25K. I have some people lined up for them.

reply »

C.K.

#43811

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 7 September, 2006

Sr. Tech.

It's a fancy way of saying that he'll look into how risky it is to buy a used piece of equipment from him.

We have a new guy like that here at my place of employment. He wears a necktie (when it's not required) and then talks slowly and uses buzzwords, catch-phrases, and then paraphrases what you tell him, and when he paraphrases you, he uses buzzwords and catchphrases..and all this to compensate for his ineptness.

reply »

Buzzword Master

#43813

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 7 September, 2006

I like Buzzwords. My favorite 5 buzzwords:

1. Business-centric 2. Synergy (One of my favorites) 3. Value-added 4. Win-win situation 5. Spatial Standardization

I'm also particularly fond of people who make "quote" marks in the air with their fingers.

Stay tuned for my list of favorite catch phrases.

reply »

Doug Eidle

#43820

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 7 September, 2006

Hi Sr. Tech, Please excuse C.K. He obviuouly has something virulent for breakfast. I am talking about knowing exactly what you are buying and all the associated costs and potential costs. You are making a value judgement, is the machine worth the asking price. As the secondary market as not baseline, like a newly built printer, every machine is a unique offering. There is a trade organiztion that is focused on the electronics secondary market. You can get information at http://www.secn.org Check out the Initiatives page.

reply »

Doug Eidle

#43821

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 7 September, 2006

Hello, Do you even know me. I do not see any benefit to this chat thread, Sr. Tech or this forum from your unfounded cynisium. Please find a more constructive way to use your time.

reply »

Buzzword Master

#43832

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 8 September, 2006

Baseline - new buzzword.

*furiously scribbles on his updated buzzword list*

reply »


Rob

#43835

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 8 September, 2006

Have we finished demeaning ourselves in this unseemly pie throwing contest yet?

reply »

#43837

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 8 September, 2006

how about "unquantifyable predicted behaviour"?

reply »

Buzz

#43838

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 8 September, 2006

NO! We need to try to initiate the description of the criteria for requirements by developing a framework for the application architecture consistent with the planning corridor specified in our strategic initiative. Once bilateral goals are established, the engineer continues to undertake reinvention activities and new initiatives, we recognize the need to establish a framework to provide the necessary structure for optimal interactions and complementarily of the various reinvention activities. The framework delineates four major goals for reinvention: (1) maximize scientific opportunities through optimal use of resources; (2) enhance engineering interactions with the scientific community; (3) clarify and streamline decision-making processes; and (4) focus internal operations on outcomes and results. Each of these goals are further developed into specific reinvention objectives, and the plan is to use these goals and objectives as guide-posts as the engineer moves forward with the myriad of reinvention projects. Then and only then will we be done!

reply »

#52469

MPM UP2000 Hi-e | 12 November, 2007

KRIKIES, me chap. Nothin' wrong with a little sweat on the brow.

reply »

PCB machines

SMT Equipment Service