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SMT Assembly Line

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We are prepairing a budget for the purchase and installation... - May 27, 2006 by

... - Jun 07, 2006 by

Amen. ... - Jun 09, 2006 by Mika  

Butt of course... ... - Jun 09, 2006 by Mika  

Efren

#41860

SMT Assembly Line | 27 May, 2006

We are prepairing a budget for the purchase and installation of a complete SMT Assembly Line. We need to assembly 25K units/month at the begining, and up to 100K unit/month in 1 year. The size of the PCB is around 3"x3" and the following components (1xBGA, 4xFPGA, Pasive components, some active components and some Thru-hole connectors), total ~150 components/board. We want to run the system 16 or 24 hours a day. Any suggestion about manufacturers and price?

Best regards

Efren

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#41861

SMT Assembly Line | 27 May, 2006

Efren,

Allow me to make some recommendations. This is my firm's bread and butter, so to speak. Helping startups like yourself achieve their budget objectives, but in the process being innovative and thinking outside of the box. Here are my suggestions----

MyData Placement Equipment: #1 in the placement market for speed and accuracy. My firm, Worldtronics, Inc has deployed numerous MyData lines to the whole gammut of Electronics industries.

Bahodium (TM) Solder: The new alloy that WCS has successfully mined. 100% RoHS compliant and the strongest, most reliable interconnect in the industry.

Furnace Heat Chamber: We employ Advanced Heat Radiation technologies utilizing advanced techniques like pyrolysis and gasification as precursor processes. A great, more cost-effective alternative to this so-called "reflow" process that is conventionally used.

Please contact my firm and we will assist you in achieving your goals of successful and seamless deployment

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#41862

SMT Assembly Line | 27 May, 2006

Hi,

This must be the worst advice I have ever seen given on a forum.

Really if you do what Guru says here, your going to go out of business so fast it's amazing.

It personally cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars when I had to retire MYDATA machines because of accuracy issues, and poor vision systems on them and replace them with Fuji XP series machines that are working perfectly.

MYDATA is great for low volume because they are really easy to setup and fast to change, but for the volume your doing, your going to need something better. I know about the difference with Fuji XP, and others will be able to suggest some of the other brands, but you DO get what you pay for when getting a good brand, as overall the manufacturers have experience in high end work, and know all the little things that need to be right to make it work.

Also, standard solders and reflow ovens should do the trick. We use Soltec, which work fine. If this is your first line, only an idiot would try and use some weird solution to the basics when you can throw in a reflow oven, even a high end one, for not much money these days.

It's the stencil printer you really need to worry about, and the overall quality of your productions going to come down to the quality of the stencil print, combined with the accuracy of the placement. Most ovens can handle lead free, and are accurate now days.

The best advice I was given when I researched this was to spend all you can on the stencil printer first, and then make sure you have accurate pick and place machines.

Don't listen to Guru, he's some kind of wacko who really does not know what he's talking about. His replies are so wrong, and anyone with experience would know that. That's why people reply to him quite bluntly, as there are some really good people on this forum.

However, there are a few manufacturers on this forum that push their products every time a thread like this comes up.

Guru, I thought you had left the forum to look for more "out of the box" thinking people? You will find them sleeping in the street, so they are easy to find.

Regards,

Grant

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#41865

SMT Assembly Line | 28 May, 2006

Mr/Mrs/Ms SMT Guru Consultant Expert

"Bahodium (TM) Solder: The new alloy that WCS has successfully mined. 100% RoHS compliant and the strongest, most reliable interconnect in the industry."

Say what???!! I don't understand this att all! Haha, maybe the mine of Yours also include a complete line of pcba manufactoring? On what planet is this mine located? Seems to remember that You have talked about this mine before...

Sorry for my poor english. /Sincerly Ps. Although a nice title. Ds.

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#41866

SMT Assembly Line | 28 May, 2006

From The Wikipedia: Guru= ...."way to self-realization" ..."the original meaning of guru has been extended to cover anyone who acquires followers, though not necessarily in an established school of philosophy or religion." ..."The importance of discerning between a true guru and a false one is explored in scriptures and teachings of religions in which a guru plays a role." /Mika

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#41867

SMT Assembly Line | 28 May, 2006

Hi,

Yeah, a google search of Bahodium returns nothing at all, but Guru added a TM, so it's trade marked?

It's not the waste of space that's interesting with his posts, as they are a little entertaining, but I am worried someone's going to listen to his posts, and be mislead.

The stuff he's posting is outright lies, and I bet he's not up to a hard debate on Bahodium for a start.

Come on Guru, lets see you post a web site on Bahodium with all the data. For that matter, lets see you have a web site at all?

Grant

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#41868

SMT Assembly Line | 28 May, 2006

Hi,

One thing, getting back to the original topic, is you might want to panelize these boards as much as possible, as you don't have too many components, but you have some good volume. So the machine changeover time is going to be an issue.

Although you can also look at some of those dual conveyer machines, as then you don't have any change over time. I have seen these from Semins and Fuji have the NXT, and there would be others. But it raises the cost a little because you need a dual lane oven, and some extra conveyers to split the boards into dual lane.

Do you need to do double sided reflow? Then you might want to add extra machines and board flip, so you can keep a one piece flow, and you can finish all the production at once, without storing assemblies half finished.

It's dependent on your budget.

Regards,

Grant

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#41870

SMT Assembly Line | 29 May, 2006

Hi Efren Unfortunately I cannot say about prices, because I don't know them in your region. But I can offer you to consider the world-leader manufacturers of each type of equipment. I think you can obtain all information through their web-sites. We supplied similar lines to many customers with the same volume of production. Everybody happy. I would suggest: DEK (England) - automatic printing Assembleon (Holland) - superior Pick&place machines Ersa (Germany) - here you can find ovens - convectional, wave soldering and seletive soldering (Type of soldering/reflowind depends on your board constrution, materials, application etc). Also at Ersa you can find perfect SMD/BGA rework sytems. If you need optical/x-ray control check it at Orbotech/Phoenix correspondingly. For washing you PCBs I would reccomend Aqueous Technologies (USA). If you need conformal coating/underfilling check for Concoat (England) or Asymtek (USA, selective coating, underfilling) In this list you can find in-line systems absolutely compatible between each other. Of course all of it just an example and it must be your solution according of technology tou gonna use and your paying capacity. Hope it helps regards sorry for my English

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#41874

SMT Assembly Line | 29 May, 2006

Good afternoon,

OSTEC Ent.? :-)

BR, Pavel

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#41879

SMT Assembly Line | 29 May, 2006

Goll dang Guru, I didn't win any money off of you yet but keep up the good work! I didn't know you were pushing a process that converts coal into carbon monoxide and hydrogen! Amazing! Keep up with your seven dollar words. You are a funny guy! By the way. Send me a quote. I have a process that requires your special attention. The statement below comes from wikipedia. "Gasification is a process that converts carbonaceous materials, such as coal, petroleum, petroleum coke or biomass, into carbon monoxide and hydrogen." Best regards, Jay

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pr

#41892

SMT Assembly Line | 30 May, 2006

Guru

thanks for the great advice and do send thta Bahodium solder to me as a sample.

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#41894

SMT Assembly Line | 30 May, 2006

I think we all know that the only gasification going on here is bovine excrement induced, but thanks for playing.

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#41902

SMT Assembly Line | 30 May, 2006

Thanks to every one who has dedicate some time to answer to my topic. More of them had been very useful to me. Grant: Answering some of your questions, yes I already will use panels; I only bring the dimensions in order to illustrate the size. And yes I the PCB has dual side components. I was checking the Juki NXT and it look nice. About budget, price is always a concern in any business, but in my case smooth running, and the guarantee of the Production qty is one of the priority, as well as scalability in a very short period of time. Do you know if Fuji can provide the complete line? For me it would be better to deal with only one manufacturer, and it will help reduce price too, because we buy the whole packet. Thanks in advance to every one in the Forum who offer any advice to me in this matter.

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Rob

#41905

SMT Assembly Line | 31 May, 2006

No one really does the complete line - they may supply it, but the ovens & usually the printers will be badged - so you end up compromising on at least one machine to get them all from the same supplier. If you buy a Speedprint printer, fuji P&P, and either a BTU or Heller oven you can't really go wrong.

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#41906

SMT Assembly Line | 31 May, 2006

Efren,

Dover Technologies is maybe the only true supplier of a whole SMT line combining DEK, Universal Instruments, Vitronics Soltec, Hover Davis and others. Based on the information you've provided you may want to consider the AdVantis or Genesis P&P from Universal. If you are looking for a sustained yield, the Platform based solutions (especially with the Lightning Head technologies) often provide less derate and more flexibility across products than other more dedicated solutions.

regards Vickt

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#41909

SMT Assembly Line | 31 May, 2006

Hi,

We actually tried to get major parts of our line from the same supplier, however each supplier is good at some parts of the line, and not others.

We went with Soltec oven and wave, which work well, and have not had any issues, plus DEK printer, and Fuji XP pick and place machines.

I really wanted to go with the best stuff we could get, and then we knew it was up to us if something was not optimal.

I like the DEK, but the software is typical of a UK designed product, where often the core function of the product works well, but the user interface is terrible. We are happy with it once you learn all the little things in the software.

The oven and wave are great, but the Soltec wave software is a bit simple. However it works well.

The Fuji's are great, and we are incredibly happy with them, and adding extra XP chip shooters is cheap, considering the accuracy and brand. I checked both Universal and Fuji, and we went with the Fuji after checking with guys in Taiwan doing consumer products.

But in your case you might want dual lane, so that's beyond what we needed, but we are going to extend our line, and board flip for one piece flow of double sided products.

Have never tried the NXT, but the guys we visited in Taiwan liked the idea. At the time it had just been released. I liked the Universal turret chip shooter, but the rest of there stuff looked junky.

I think the best advice would be to travel to Taiwan, and check what those guys are doing, because they are doing high volume, and have the money and business to make purchase decisions based on effency. I have noticed that a lot of manufactures based in the US choose based on cost of the initial purchase, or what others are doing.

The guys in Taiwan are busy, but under incredible pressure to compete with China, so it's really interesting to see how they are handling it. We really benefited from the trip, and our line is incredibly fast, and we are expanding madly because of the decisions.

I find it's incredibly important to take a global view, and look well beyond what the guys you hang with think.

Good luck!

Regards,

Grant

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adlsmt

#41939

SMT Assembly Line | 1 June, 2006

I am not exactly sure what Universal equipment Grant thought looked "junky" but we are very happy with our Universal line. I cant say Im crazy about the looks of our Ultraflex printers, but they do work well. If you are doing high volume you should probably stick with Panasonic, Fuji, Siemens or Universal placement equipment. These are the most reliable brands. We are high mix so the things that brought us to choose Universal may not be as important to you. The main thing being the software is great. I think you should take a look at all these manufacturers and pick what you feel is the best fit for you. We have a video of the Universal Lightning head on our website if you want to take a look. http://www.adltech.com We are installing our second one this week.

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ricardof

#41942

SMT Assembly Line | 1 June, 2006

My suggestion DEK printers are good, however, we have an EKRA, I'm really amazed, about $4 KUSD in spares and service in 5 years (approx $160 K for a printer) NXT is good, nice high volume, ease of use , quick changeovers, and we just ran them for 10 months but we didn't keep for other reasons than performance (approx. $300 K each base, I think 2 bases would suffice, may be one) We have like 50 Vitronics ovens, BTU is ok as well (appro $100 K for an oven) You can buy a nice used UIC Radial 8 for about $80 K I think

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philips

#41953

SMT Assembly Line | 2 June, 2006

hi Efren, 25k/month means this will come 1000 units per day(25days) so 500 for 1 shift, so by using following method u can easily produce ur target. MPM AP25 - XP-142 - XP142 - XP243 - VITRONICS reflow, this is the best method, by using optimastic programming u can get 1000 per shift easily, because the machines r very rigid & good accuracy & less breakdown.

there is another option below

MPM AP25 - CP642 - XP243 - VITRONICS REFLOW, Put all the 0604 to 1206 component in CP642 & put all the IC,D2PAK & BGA in XP 243 this will save more time.

All the best, plz enquire the price with fuji dealer

Regards P. vinod philip vinodphilipp@yahoo.com

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#41958

SMT Assembly Line | 2 June, 2006

Efren, Most of the previous posts offer valuable information. Certainly you should consider panelization of the individual circuits. Otherwise you'll waste valuable production time passing 3" boards along the line. Your orig estimate of min thruput of 11Kpph is accurate for 5 days @ 16hr/day. Once the production ramp hits you'll most likely move to a 6 day/wk 24h/day environment, then you'll require around 29Kpph. Don't forget to factor machine derates, and operational inefficiency when planning thruput needs. You have a wide range of end user comments, I strongly suggest you contact the suppliers directly. **Don't underestimate post installation service support, spare part costs, special calibration requirements, new product introduction capability, placement technology, product editing, and component placement flexibliity. I'd suggest working with a supplier that maintains design consistency; look for solutions that build upon previous successes. If you have any further questions please feel free to contact me directly 858-395-5880

Regards, StempJ

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#41960

SMT Assembly Line | 2 June, 2006

Hi everyone,

Again my very sincere thank you all, for your advice, this is a very professional Forum. I have received very good advices, and for that I will be always pleasant.

As soon as I purchase and Install my assembly line, I will let you know, and I will be happy to share my experience when the time come in this Forum.

Best Regards

Efren

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#41961

SMT Assembly Line | 2 June, 2006

Hi Efren, We are always happy to do our best to help each other out in this forum. I can't say that i have contributed with anything valuable about Your original qeustion; except that I had some serious thoughts about some really idiot posting from "Guru" and I know that You are smart enough to know how to "select" the information that You get. Who knows, maybe next time You will have something to share whith us. Theory is always good, but theory with experience in combination is the best. Sometime the experience has been an expensive lesson for some of us...

I concur with most of the prior postings and therefore, I have nothing further to add. I wish You the best of luck. I am sorry for my poor english and gramma. /Sincerly

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Brian

#41978

SMT Assembly Line | 5 June, 2006

I have used, Siemens, Juki, Fuji, Universal, and Assembleon. All of them can do the job, depending on the machine mix selected. I personally prefer MPM screenprinters, after using both DEK and MPM. BTU, Vitronics, Heller, and Ellectrovert all make good ovens. Do you have BGA's on both sides? If you do, a possibility would be to mix your panels with different sides. This would allow you to eliminate changeovers from top to bottom. You simply bring the boards back to the front of the line and run them through on the other side. You could also ask for a throughput analysis from the major manufacturers for your product. I have done this in the past. You send them the cad data, BOM, and panelization, and they can give you an estimate of what the machines will typically run. This is important since the P&P machines will nomrally be your bottleneck. Since you are panelizing the boards, you will also want to think about depaneling equipment. Are you planning on using V-Score or Tabs? You do not want to depanel by hand. You will run the risk of damaging components.

Hope this helps, Good Luck, Brian

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#41996

SMT Assembly Line | 6 June, 2006

Efren,

Listen to the Guru, he has great experience in what he talks about. Just becaue something is new, many engineer here will try to blast it to pieces.

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#41997

SMT Assembly Line | 6 June, 2006

According to your low/mid volume production. I suggest you to use the Fuji XP 143, XP 243 or QP 341E with MTU. The cost of new totally less than 250k.

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#41998

SMT Assembly Line | 7 June, 2006

I think XP series will suit your needs. They are inexpensive, high accuracy placement & long lasting machine. Ekra printer & BTU are strongly recommended.

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#42006

SMT Assembly Line | 7 June, 2006

Dear Dr. Shocker PhD, How would you know that Guru has great experience in what he talks about? Great Bahodium and mining experience maybe...?! Bahodium is new to me so i would like to see some papers about it. Until then I will just disregard Guru. /Sincerly

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Wave Master Larry

#42010

SMT Assembly Line | 7 June, 2006

Wave Master Larry

#42011

SMT Assembly Line | 7 June, 2006

Listen, you should try to utilize wave solder as well. High speed gadgets are fine if you want to make things complictded, but if your just starting things up, think simple. Nothing beats wave for solder many parts at the same time. If you can't panalize you're boards you can always by a wave solder pallet that holds a bunch of your boards I ain't sure what plane that Guru guy is on about reflowing parts but it sounds like no one agrees with him so maybe wave is part of your solution.

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#42018

SMT Assembly Line | 8 June, 2006

Hi,

Nothing Guru has said on this form is valid, so what's the great experience he has, and how can you confirm that?

Grant

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#42019

SMT Assembly Line | 8 June, 2006

Hi,

The only problem with wave is loading the parts, and SMT is lower cost, and faster. We use wave for connectors through, and it works great, as it's fast when there is lots of connectors.

I think he's panelizing, so he should be cool on doing multiple units, but it's still going to be hundreds of units a shift, so it should be a fun line to setup and optimize. Apart from lead free spoiling all the fun.

Grant

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Base

#42020

SMT Assembly Line | 8 June, 2006

Hi Efren,

Did some simple math... - 100k units/month - 24 days/month - 16 hrs/day - 75% efficiency (ballpark questimate)

You'll be looking at a line that does a bit more 50kCmp/hr with an IC/TH placer that does 3.5kCmp/hr (assuming 10 IC's /TH connectors per unit)

From what I know best I'd propose the following for P&P: - Assembleon AX 5 with 10 large robots for chips and smaller sized IC's - Assembleon AQ-2 for large IC's and through-hole connectors

Should your volume increase even more you can always add robots to the AX machine without changing your line layout.

Just a thought...

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#42037

SMT Assembly Line | 8 June, 2006

Come on guys......Guru and Shocker are the same guy and he is a troll (someone who simply wants to stir up the pot by making outrageous comments).

By ignoring him...he will go away. Replying to him is like throwing gasoline on a fire.

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#42044

SMT Assembly Line | 9 June, 2006

Guru/Moonman, Shocker, and Wave Master (who seems to have made a comback of sorts) make this blog entertaining and inject some much needed humor on the forum.

Let's face it, guys. There's a nerdy Napoleon Dynamite in all of us, and most of you guys ain't funny...GOSH!

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#42052

SMT Assembly Line | 9 June, 2006

Amen.

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Chunks

#42063

SMT Assembly Line | 9 June, 2006

"Let's face it, guys. There's a nerdy Napoleon Dynamite in all of us, and most of you guys ain't funny...GOSH!"

I Hope you�re talking figuratively. "Butt" to each his own.

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#42069

SMT Assembly Line | 9 June, 2006

Butt of course...

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#42075

SMT Assembly Line | 9 June, 2006

So sorry sir Fastec, but I am Mumtaz, not Guru. Call me a troll, but I have been a part of pcb assembly since it's inception. I speak from experience but also am eager to accept new ideas. Yes, I know the Guru may be playing us as fools and his processes are very rediculous, but one never knows. But isn't this the whole idea of this net?

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#42076

SMT Assembly Line | 9 June, 2006

Dr Shocker PhD, I think You misunderstand "the whole idea of this net" We try to do our best in professional matter and otherwise to be helpful to each other. Maybe It is Not true tht You are the "Guru" but hey, You sure sounds like him. /Sincerly

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#42078

SMT Assembly Line | 9 June, 2006

Hi,

When was the first PCB assembled?

Grant

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#42079

SMT Assembly Line | 9 June, 2006

Haha, I think this thread has turned out to be a little bit of humor/humour...?! No problem, It doesn't matter, as long as we do the best of it's purpose. How about Efren; did You get the information that you req.? Regardles The "Guru",Dr,professor, Etc? Please let us know. /Sincerly Ps. I think this thread is more funny than the "humor/humour" posting. And that will say something...Ds.

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