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Solder Saver ??

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Hi All, I am currently looking at ways to reduce Dross on... - Apr 07, 2006 by aj  


aj

#40874

Solder Saver ?? | 7 April, 2006

Hi All,

I am currently looking at ways to reduce Dross on our wave process. One tool that I came across was the Pulsar Solder Saver.

Its hand held and kinda sucks in the dross -returns the good solder to he bath and drops the powder on top of the Pot to be scooped away.

Has anyone any experience with this device or any other recommendations _ (we dont really have the option to switch to nitrogen due to building location )

aj...

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Chunks

#40876

Solder Saver ?? | 7 April, 2006

Hi AJ,

I have never used the Pulsar, but have seen it. I worry about it clogging all the time. Also being "hand held" over a hot pot wories me too. Look for something automated.

My $0.02 and only an opinion.

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Chim Richalds

#40879

Solder Saver ?? | 7 April, 2006

You got a lot of neck fat, Chunks?

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Chunks

#40881

Solder Saver ?? | 7 April, 2006

Hi Chim Chim,

Hows Spritle these days? You guys still living in the trunk of the Mach 5? Tell Trixie, Mom , Pops, Sparky, Racer X ans Speed I said "Hi". BTW, The Shooting Star (#9) was way faster than your brother Speeds. All be it that it took the entire Tatsunoko Company to build the Shooting Star, while Pops built the Mach 5 in his garage.

To answer you question - no. You?

Now tell me where the GRX race car engine is buried! (you're the only one that really knows!) We already checked Bret Craniums grave you devil!

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#40884

Solder Saver ?? | 7 April, 2006

Chunks....firstly you rock...

Secondly what the heck is that guy talking about neck fat ? hahahah !

I better stop...I am being "mere rhetoric" again.

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CAL

#40927

Solder Saver ?? | 11 April, 2006

I would be leary of a "Sucking" machine and hot liquid solder.

Kester makes pellets that you put on top of the pot to seperate dross from lead.

Technical Devices has a solder recovery machine

Cal Agilent Technologies

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#40944

Solder Saver ?? | 12 April, 2006

Has anyone out there have any experience with this product? It looks to good to be true. http://pkaymetal.com/dross.php4

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not wave master Larry

#40957

Solder Saver ?? | 13 April, 2006

You're right, it sounds too good to be true. You would expect a man in a horsedrawn carriage to sell this magical elixer. It would take a set of stones, to be the one to test this on a customers board and hope for no long term side effects!

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Baer

#40994

Solder Saver ?? | 15 April, 2006

It works. It is a process chemical that works for leaded and lead free solders (two different products) take a look at the website http://www.pkaymetal.com and look at the MS2 Molten Solder Surfactant sub page. The reliability data is there. It has been running at Graphic Research for a yeaar and in high production at Cisco/Scientific Atlanta for five months. There has been a great deal of reliability testing and Scientific Atlanta has seen significent quality improvements while using it. They report a significent reduction in DPMO. The data is on the web page.

Hey, manking lived with infection for milinia, so antibiotics were snake oil? It is just plain old good process chemistry. New, not the old floating oils or powders. It only reccts with the dross and has no effect on the non dross metal. The SIR data Etc is all there.

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RDR

#41005

Solder Saver ?? | 17 April, 2006

So far the only issue I have been able to determine with this product is Pkaymetals the company. Seems impossible to get samples or local representation.

Was told first that they would not let me have it until they had local representation so equipmemt could be checked out or something.

Secondly after I asked about the status of local rep they said they would just sell it to me. this would be fine, but it is Pkay themselves that mentioned that they need to review to determine if additonal gates or whatever may be necessary and information on its proper use.

So I am and it appears that I will continue to use interflux Dross reducer. It works well and now that I remember its time to order some!

Russ

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Baer

#41008

Solder Saver ?? | 17 April, 2006

Just as an update P. Kay would not sell it until it was formally introduced at APEX. The sales rep issue in North America is still being finalized with the first rep due to be anounced this week.In the meantime they are taking orders and providing instalation assistance on an ever increasing basis. The initial response to this product has been overwelming. The instalation and maintence guide and video is due to be finalized in a few weeks, that will make it easier to install and maintain the process. MS2 is not a dross reducer. It reduces ALL dross back into usable metal and keeps any new dross from building up. In general you can figure that you will reduce your solder purchases by over 50% and you will see a reduction in solder related defects.

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JH

#41020

Solder Saver ?? | 18 April, 2006

AJ,

I have had the Solder Saver on trial a couple of times and reached the same conclusion both times - it is not for us. However there are benifits for some users.

In case you dont know how it works, here is a brief explanation; The hand held tool is cylindrical about an inch and a half wide and a foot and a half long. The whole unit is made of stainless steel. There is a cylindrical handle welded to the top with an activation button on the end. At the bottom front there is an aperture about an inch wide and two inches long. Inside there are blades angled to follow the shape of an archemedies screw.

The blades chop the dross and the heavier good solder drops out of the bottom, while the lighter powder is carried up the blades in the archemedies screw formation and drop from the top of the aperture.

I found that access was a big problem. We have a Soltec Delta machine with nitrogen (3 tubes). Hence only a space of about 6" by 1ft at best to work with. The aperture is set about 1" from the front of the unit, so you loose a 1" window. It was suggested that we took the wave formers out, but this is about 2 hours work and would only be done every 6 months or so.

I found that it took just as long with the solder saver as normal chopping and de-drossing because of having to use a scraper to move the dross to a position where the solder saver could be used. Even then, the dross liked to move away from the unit so you found yourself chasing it around the solder pot.

The unit is fairly light, however after holding the unit for about half an hour your arms start to ache and you need to take a break. The Delta solder pot was in it's lower position, I wouldn't have liked to hold the Solder Saver in the pot at the upper position.

However, all that said, it did reduce the dross to a fine powder. A lot finer than you could do by hand (unless you had all day). I was concerned about rotating blades in a molten bath of solder at 260degC (yes, lead free). However there were no splashes. Yes, I will repeat, if used as per the instructions, there will be no splashes! I was very suprised, but I think that the stainless steel construction means that the solder cannot stick to the blades and therefore cannot be carried around to be dangerously ejected out of the side.

Fianlly, because the unit is churning the solder, it does aid in oxidation. Therefore you may find that it produces more powder than conventional chopping, but it is more POWDER, which is better than clumps of solder.

Pro's: Cheap - around �3K ($5k). Does the job - as long as you have good access. Stainless steel construction - robust? Simple to use - give it to an operator. Better than chopping. Will definately save you money (particularly with lead-free alloys) because the dross is mainly powder.

Con's: If you don't have good access to the solder - forget it, unless you are happy to only use the unit during major maintainance. Don't expect to save much on time. Can get heavy - built like Popeye? No problem. Don't try using it until it gets hot - it will trip out. Reliability? - one that we tried was new, but was making some odd squeeking noises. You still have to scoop off the powder in the end! Do you get the feeling it will be used a few times and then thrown into a cupboard, never to be seen again?

Please, try the unit yourself. It might be for you! I hope this posting helps.

Jon.

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aj

#41078

Solder Saver ?? | 20 April, 2006

Hi Jon,

Thanks for that.

I seem to be having a problem getting a unit on Trial. I have plenty of access and my main priority is to reduce the amount of dross (or may I say Solder) that we send back as Dross,

I am based in Ireland so I have to go thru a UK based Rep.

Where are you based?

aj...

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#41158

Solder Saver ?? | 24 April, 2006

Why don't you guys look at the "WORLD LEADERS IN SOLDER RECOVERY".

EVS International make the EVS 3000 and EVS 6000 Solder Recovery Systems.

Many other companies have tried to come up with different ways of recovering solder but the EVS is the best and the most long standing and now on many companies approved vendor lists.

The new EVS 3000 and EVS 6000 machines have been redesigned and now are selling worldside to everyone with wave solder machines.

There are many happy customers in the USA and worldwide.

This wave oil has been tried by many companies now and has failed everytime.

Yes it does reduce dross but so will engine oil from your car.

This wave oil causes bridging shorts and rework and coats everything with a black soot and messes up your solder pot.

Why would anyone consider adding a additive or contaminates to your process.

The EVS put back in to the solder pot exactly the same as what was there in the first place PURE SOLDER.

EVS have lead and lead free machines.

www.solderrecovery.com

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#41159

Solder Saver ?? | 24 April, 2006

I know a few customers who have purchased the system from EVS and they hated it.

Machine was poorly designed and the support was quite bad.

Stay away from this............

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pr

#41163

Solder Saver ?? | 25 April, 2006

Not only is he typing with his feet (apparently) he is trying to get free advertising AND disparaging the competition, is nothing sacred?

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#41167

Solder Saver ?? | 25 April, 2006

I would challenge that comment

NAME ONE

You are correct regarding the old Earth-Tronics SRS machines

But EVS is a new company and the new models the EVS 3000 adn EVS 6000 have been totally redesisgned and all who have used the old machines and now use the new models love them

Lets see if you can name one customer who doent like the new EVS machines

As for support

Support is provided by Sono-Tek Corporation Milton NY

Sono-Tek is the world leader in Spray Flux Technology and is famous for its support and customer service and every EVS customer is very happy

You will have to do better than that

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#41174

Solder Saver ?? | 25 April, 2006

So how do you like it EVS when someone comes on board and blasts your product....exactly like you did?

I know nothing about your product or your company. I was simply trying to make a point.

I do know this though...if you showed up at my factory trying to sell your product and you used that sort of sales pitch you just wrote about....you would be out on your ass within 30 seconds.

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#41186

Solder Saver ?? | 25 April, 2006

"Why dont you guy look at the world leader in solder recovery"

Why don't "you guy" try some punctuation?

Why don't you provide some data to support your claims of "world leader" in a technical forum? You could be the world leader in bull$h!t and I wouldn't know the difference, right?

Why don't you define "wave oil" and how that term applies to the new additive that you're discussing here?

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#41360

Solder Saver ?? | 3 May, 2006

I am based in Nogales and I have also tried the MS2, I was told to immediately cancel my trials, It did reduced the build up of dross but the mess it made to the wave and the surrounding areas was very bad, Everything was coated black and the smell and fumes were very strong, Also we have a increase in quality issues and managment put it down this this, As soon as we removed it from the process the quality issues went away, I found that when you look at the cost of this per lt and the cost of shipping back to the supplier the numbers are not good.

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jr

#44470

Solder Saver ?? | 11 October, 2006

I bought a solder saver that is what you are talking about. Mine has since broken and I would like to get it repaired or replaced. Can you tell me where I can contact the manufacturer. Web site? Any help will be appreciated.

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Steve Gregory

#44471

Solder Saver ?? | 11 October, 2006

I don't know why anyone would even want any of this stuff since you get paid for the solder that's in your dross anyway.

The way I look at it is that it's really a GOOD THING to have some solder come out with the dross while you're de-drossing your pot because then you have to add some VIRGIN solder back into your pot. That way it keeps contaminate percentages from building-up.

JMHO...

-Steve Gregory-

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#44719

Solder Saver ?? | 26 October, 2006

I have seen one that is advertised with a 30 day money back gaurantee and a year warranty. It sounds the same as the Pulsar but I do not see any reference to Pulsar on the website. I saw it at. http://www.solderreclamation.com

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aj

#44721

Solder Saver ?? | 26 October, 2006

thats the pulsar unit or a very good copy!

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JH

#44736

Solder Saver ?? | 27 October, 2006

Yes, that is the unit I have tried (or as you say, a convincing copy).

Sorry aj, some months ago on this thread you asked where I was based and the answer is Nottingham, England. I only check this site once every few months and it has been a busy summer! I had the unit on trial through a company over here called AMS.

Seeing that the EVS system has now also been mentioned, I would like to comment on this as well, as we have also had one of these on a trial (albeit just half a day).

Firstly I have to go back to a previous employment of 12 years ago where we had several Applehouse SRS machines (large, high volume sub contract manufacturing). They performed excellently when they were working. What came out was just dross dust and 1 or 2 nice ingots to return to the solder bath. I remember the machines breaking down once or twice a month, usually for a day or two at a time. I seem to remember (and it was a while ago) the biggest problems were the seal failing and solder getting past the piston and the control board messing up. However the amount of solder we were using and therefore recovering made a decent payback easy.

When I joined my current company 5 years ago I investigated the SRS system again and found that Applehouse were no more and Earthtronics were the new manufacturers. The rep seemed to have little interest in selling me a machine. In fact he went on holiday to Timbuktu or somewhere and said he would call me on his return. Needless to say, he never did!

I parked the idea until we started lead free manufacture a year and a bit ago. I then found that EVS were producing the systems. I had a demo unit in and it performed as well as I remember them from years ago. I was assured that the reliability was now much better because of modifications to the design. Because we were only running around 20% of product through the lead free wavesolder m/c, I had a hard time justifying the spend.

I need to re-evaluate the validity of purchasing a machine now that we are up to approx 50%. I would like to see an extended warranty though, just in case! I will be asking exactly what the modifications are. Hope this helps.

Jon.

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greg york

#44931

Solder Saver ?? | 7 November, 2006

Buy decent solder in the first place especially with Lead free and the savings made could be around 50% of the dross production for Lead Free when compared to Leaded. Buy poor quality solder you will need a solder recovery unit of some format. Cheers Greg York BLT Circuit Services Ltd England

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#45139

Solder Saver ?? | 16 November, 2006

You probably have more advise than you can stand, but... I've looked at all these products, becuase we're in equipment sales and we wanted to see if there was a revenue potential here. Our general opinion is that dross is a hassle, and there is no EASY way to manage it. I will tell you that I have seen some operators dross more solder than dross; and I've seen good operators do a decent job seperating it as they do the daily maintenance. If you do a good job seperating it, you are coming out ahead after you sell it back to your alloy provider. Be sure to get the right price for lead free dross.

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#45974

Solder Saver ?? | 5 December, 2006

I have tried all the products I could find on the market. The so called wonder stuff MS2 from PK Metals (Aweful nasty stuff) and also the solder saver (Terrible hand held egg whisker).

Recenty I had an 30 day evaluation on the EVS 6000 from EVS international.

I have 3 lead free solder pots and this machine recovered an average of 69% of solder from all my dross I was sending away.

It was easy to use and had many operator safeties.

Great machine and I advise anyone looking to save money on their solder dross to look at this machine.

I bought the machine after the evaluation and I had a very fast return on my investment.

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#45975

Solder Saver ?? | 5 December, 2006

I have tried all the products I could find on the market. The so called wonder stuff MS2 from PK Metals (Aweful nasty stuff) and also the solder saver (Terrible hand held egg whisker).

Recenty I had an 30 day evaluation on the EVS 6000 from EVS international.

I have 3 lead free solder pots and this machine recovered an average of 69% of solder from all my dross I was sending away.

It was easy to use and had many operator safeties.

Great machine and I advise anyone looking to save money on their solder dross to look at this machine.

I bought the machine after the evaluation and I had a very fast return on my investment.

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FOX

#45977

Solder Saver ?? | 5 December, 2006

After have so much discussion about this solder dross reduction, which way is the best to achieve good solder quality with low cost investment? Would it be add additive or recycling the dross or use N2 during wave soldering process??

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Scott

#45986

Solder Saver ?? | 5 December, 2006

Buy the EVS. There are demo units and rebuilt units available. Nitrogen is a continued added cost (some benifits). Additive (enough said).

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