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Compact Reflow Ovens?

Views: 7915

Our company doesn't need a huge 10 foot reflow oven blocking... - Mar 17, 2018 by Reckless  

Another option to consider is ATCO ( ... - Mar 20, 2018 by JimPat  

#79989

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 17 March, 2018

Our company doesn't need a huge 10 foot reflow oven blocking up space on our shop floor. We have been looking for 1 backup tabletop unit and 1 compact conveyor unit made by a reputable manufacturer.

For tabletop units the only non chinese I keep coming across is really the Manncorp MC-301. It looks same as Torch T200C oven with a fancy controller. It seems overpriced at $5,000. I like that it warms up in 2 minutes but has small pcb area. I contacted Torch from alibaba and its looking $2,500 from them including shipping. This is for non nitrogen option.

For Conveyor units I am only finding smaller units (under 6 feet) that have been discontinued. I am not understanding why manufacturers are only focusing on the mondo huge reflow ovens. I imagine they make a killing on them but would think they would care to offer smaller units for the small to medium production.

I have checked the following brands: vitronics, BTU, Heller, Manncorp, Seho, Novastar

Can anyone give some good advice for a reputable manufacturer for production environments?

Also, how important is bottom heat zone for small machines?

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#79998

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 18 March, 2018

Reckless that's easy : Tabletop units are a joke, you could just as well go build one yourself with a toaster oven and a controller, the results won't be great but at least you won't have spent $5k on one with a ssnazzy screen.

"Hulking Units" - well I don't know what you would describe as hulking but basically, you need process length to achieve throughput and an effect reflow profile on your boards. You can't get much of an effective oven eblow about 1.5m in heated length and even then what you would get would be very limited restricting the number of people it would be useful too. Popular smallish conveyor oven brands - Essemtec,TWS,DDM & a selection of rebranded Chinese models. Do not make the mistake of just considering your oven a hot box, its a critical process and more complex than one might think. Chinese ovens have a poor reputation for heaters and fans failing, by contrast BTU warranty theirs for life.

If floor area is a concern you could get a standalone Vapor Phase oven, that would take your large panel reflow it in 6 mins or so and be ready for the next one, some parts don't like this process however (mostly electrolytics)

It is fairly unusual for oven not to have any bottom heating, you want your board to heat evenly, it it doesn't it can warp or large copper areas on the bottom could wick away the heat from your heated top side. I'd say it was an especially bad idea with your large panel idea.

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#79999

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 18 March, 2018

Thanks for your help every time!

You are right table top units are a joke. For smaller conveyor ovens I found two major brands: Manix (no longer makes ovens) and Manncorp. The manncorp unit I am looking at does not have a bottom heat zone. Most of the units I am looking for are 5' feet long 230V 3phase, with heater belt area of 40" and 13"-16" belt widths. I have found 2 3-4 zone 1995 Manix units and 1 manncorp 4 zone (2008 model).

I was trying to find a used decent vapor phase oven but the ones I run into seem to take alot of nitrogen.

The manncorp I looked at claims even heating on top. It just doesnt have a bottom heater zone. I do have some boards with 2 sided components.

My idea for large panels isn't going to well. Mostly because I am using thin pcb's and perforating them so it makes the overall board weak/warps a bit if too large. So I am changing my panels to be closer to 9x9."

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#80005

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 19 March, 2018

Another critical part of a process with a large board is support. Most commonly this is a bed of pins e.g something like red-e-set but there are other solutions. Support with a large panel will be critical for printing to get a good gasket between PCB and stencil and fairly important during placement (much more so with your aged Jukis than with a warp sensing, pressure measuring modern high end machine).

With Vapor Phase I would have been thinking along these lines http://www.asscon.de/e/pages/products/vp510.html there are several ovens out there that look very similar (Roland Hecht,Exmoor, ..)

Manix as I understand it sold out to a UK company called Elite who carried on making the Ovens at least for a while (worlds worst website). However a search on here would not exactly commend them to you.

I'm not sure if it would also be true in the USA but over here smaller ovens and old machines are often sold by companies who specialize in consumables as much as anything else. (e.g PMTech or grovesales) companies like this also sometimes import ovens like this chappie http://detech-europe.com/soldering-technologies/reflow-soldering-systems/ sometimes you can work out who makes them. This example appeared to be a singapore company called global active technologies.

I'd go with the Manncorp, you know where to go with that if it goes wrong.

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Rob

#80006

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 19 March, 2018

If you are doing double sided smt you need to look at a pin chain conveyor on your oven, not just a mesh belt.

Regarding vapour phase I'm not an expert, but I've not seen one run with Nitrogen - as I understand it the vapour creates an inert atmosphere instead.

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#80011

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

Manncorp refuses to support used equipment. Plus their stuff looks like Torch ovens anyway with glorified controllers. They had a bad attitude towards their stuff. Did not sound like a responsible manufacturer to me.

I did find two people supporting old manix ovens with plenty of spare parts. I have two to pick from one has a windows computer from 1997-3 zones the other has manual individual controls (looks like 1995 5 zones). I'm leaning towards the manual even though the windows unit looks like new cosmetic condition. The manual oven has 5 zones (3 upper and 2 lower) and is 66" long.

Also, looking at a Juki 760 machine with the purchase. It comes with some feeders, MTC (not sure what that is).

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#80012

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

Pin chains don't come on small ovens. I was thinking about buying some kind of pallet to put pcbs in but it may not be automated then?

Most of my stuff is single sided but we do have three boards double sided.

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Rob

#80013

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

MTC = Multi tray changer. It's a stand alone unit that feeds in trays of components - it means you don't sacrifice feeder locations to waffle packs. Different companies call them different things.

A 760 is dog slow, and spares are getting harder to source from 3rd parties as Juki stopped support a few years back.

You don't want to be messing with pallets on short ovens as it blows the thermal mass of the PCBA, needing much more heat, that might not be available in a shorter older oven.

Older ovens were designed to run at lower temperatures for leaded solder, so you are probably on a hiding to nothing with an old short oven, and pallets.

Also you have to keep loading the pallets manually.

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#80014

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

Thanks, what is the smallest oven with an edge conveyor? How come no one is thinking about the little manufacturer not the huge contract manufacturers?

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#80015

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

What pick and place machine do you recommend under $20,000? I would like to be getting 8,000-12,000 cph reliably and without much maintenance/labor/issues.

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Rob

#80016

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

I've seen them down at 2 metres in the past, but usually only 4 zone. from memory Electrovert used to do a small 5 zone with pin chain - Infraflow 500 or something.

To be fair, even small one line CEMs usually have a decent oven as you need to be able to process a variety of boards of differing thermal masses and component requirements without damaging them. You also need to hit a similar thermal profile to what the paste manufacturer specifies to get good flux action, flow, and solder joint formation. It's not just about the heat up, the cool down is critical in the joint reliability.

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Rob

#80017

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

What pick and place machine? Depends where you are. If in the UK or Europe and on a tight budget I would go for an old Philips/Assembleon Topaz, but only because I know the machines and where to buy them cheap, good freelance engineers and a good low cost supply network of parts and feeders.

Juki have good freelance support, but the only machines in budget are going to be the old 7 series, which are very slow.

Much as it pains me to say it, and even with a few decades of experience I would probably sub out your volumes. Go for the right subby and the quality of better machinery and process control will give you more reliable product and less headaches.

Otherwise you are going to have a steep learning curve on printing, reflow and SMT placement, whilst trying to ship to customers to hit sales and cashflow targets and avoiding quality returns.

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#80019

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

We are planning to learn while we have some volume subcontracted. We are in US. We have subcontracted for 30 years but want to bring in house now. Looking for the right machine for our needs. Reliability with speed. I found a machine for under $10k with feeders, the video looked fast to me. It's not blazing speed but it was moving.

I think there must be a machine out there that is soo reliable and repeatable that will be a good beginner machine. After some time we can upgrade to something faster but don't want a headache machine.

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Rob

#80020

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

Just depends on who is local to you support wise then, as at your end of the market you want a good machine with cheap training & support

Something like: DEK248 or 260 for printing $2K Philips Topaz or Mydata MY9 $5-10K (Mydata's are really easy to use). Heller 1500 $5K ish

Find a friendly dealer and do a package deal with a bit of training, warranty & support

Check with us lot on the dealer though, as there are good and bad around.

Rob.

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#80021

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

Those of us doing low volume with mesh ovens and double sided boards will often use the titanium strips used for making boards more rigid for wave soldering. Gives you enough clearance for lower profile items that you would typically find on the first side of a board. Obvs only works standalone...

There are plenty of people catering to the small manufacturer Essemtec, TWS & DDM are currently trading western companies that sell perfectly functional smaller reflow ovens at fairly significant scale. Small manufacturers often don't want pin-edge. There will be several chinese ones imported under various guises too just don't expect to see them 2nd user. Manncorp, Folungwin, Ersa & IEMME to name but a few are some more that pickup about where those guys leave off before you step up to the 5m+ long XPM,Electrovert,BTU, Heller,Rehm,Seho,SMT Wertheim etc.

In the UK there are 2 (Mekko IR ovens and the SMT LFR400 Reflow Oven) homegrown (and easy to miss) manufacturers of smallish ovens, I can only imagine there must be a couple of american ones too. There are also more vendors than I can keep track of selling refurbished equipment, old equipment, chinese imports instead of or even alongside bigger brands. Sometimes they don't seem to promote the low end stuff... weird.

If anybody imports this to the USA http://www.emstonline.com/reflow_oven.php that could be worth a look, I think the design is quite recent, over here its sold by the outfit that sells Hanwha Techwin placement machines.

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JimPat

#80023

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 March, 2018

Another option to consider is ATCO (http://www.atco-us.com/products/item/5-pro-1600-smt-reflow-ovens). Cycle time is around 5 minutes and your throughput will depend on on how many panels will fit in the 20" x 20" work area.

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Rob

#80029

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 21 March, 2018

Although if you do many double sided boards you will want to avoid having to constantly fit boards with unreflowed components on into jigs, as there is plently of opportunity for defects. It's fine on the odd board, but doing it a lot is something to avoid.

Also as you mention earlier you are just starting out trying to bring things in house. This sort of technology isn't scaleable in a cost effective way.

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#80048

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 22 March, 2018

I can get an Opal Xii for $19k or Juki 760 for $8k. Which one do you recommend? Both come with enough feeders.

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#80058

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 23 March, 2018

Between those two I think you have already been given the answer.

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#80061

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 23 March, 2018

Not yet, but also have an option for a Universal GSMxs machine for $6k but only 5 feeders, fully upgraded 2 heads (1 brand new).

I leaning against the Opal as its same speed as the Juki on paper for twice the price.

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Rob

#80066

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 26 March, 2018

Hi Reckless,

If it is an Opal Xii with the 8 nozzle conversion it is a no brainer.

If it's only got 4 nozzles, then it still has the advantage of being able to place down to 01005 (the 7 series is only 0402), and should be able to handle a wider range of parts. If it has a linescan camera then you can place pretty much anything. We do 100mm connectors. The Xii would also be a better machine if you are trying to scale up, as you can still get the extra 4 nozzles if it only has 4.

Either way you can get very cheap nozzles and feeders for both.

BTW, we have older and newer Jukis, and Yamaha/Assembleon. Both go on forever, but in a straight choice between those 2 machines it is the Xii every time. For the record we still have some 750's and 760's we are phasing out for Juki 20xx/FXxx and we have a lot of Xii's.

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#80082

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 27 March, 2018

What do you think of the Hanwha Techwin placement machines? I like their cph ratings but not sure how reliable and long lasting their machines are.

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Rob

#80084

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 27 March, 2018

They used to be sold under the Samsung brand in our region, the old CP40's & 45's were good machines. I know people who ran them hard for many years with no issues. Haven't had as much experience with the SM*** machines, but people I rate like them. Just depends on how hard a life they have had.

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#80087

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 27 March, 2018

Would you prefer a Samsung CP machine over a Juki? I like the CPH figures of the SM machines and would think about buying one used once I am up and running 100%.

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#80100

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 27 March, 2018

I managed to find a brand new old stock Novastar GF-12 oven for $250 (it was used once but you can't tell): https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/tls/6539855333.html

This seems like it may be perfect for my needs. It does seem industrial grade but only 3 zones (top and bottom). Heat tunnel length is 26" which may be very small but if I run conveyor really slow. The Nitrogen option is $1300 and it leaks nitrogen as needed.

Any comments or feedback is greatly appreciated. My buddy is trying to convince me to get a Nitrogen generator to use with this machine.

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Rob

#80103

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

Hi Reckless,

Depends on model of Samsung & Juki.

For example you talked earlier of a Juki 750 compared to an Assembleon Opal Xii, which were different generations - a fair comparison would have been a Juki 2060 to an Opal Xii.

Same with the Samsung - what model and year, and more importantly what is your local support as you are starting from fresh.

It may be that you only run with the cheap SMT machine and cheap oven for a year as you gain experience, then put all that new knowledge into spending real money on newer, better kit. If that is likely to be the case then go with something that you know you can get up and running cheaply, ad get support and training at the right budget.

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Rob

#80104

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

Regarding the oven, do it. It's $250 USD and it will teach you so much if you have scrap boards and an oven profiler to play with. Your paste supplier may be able to help you here if you don't.

Right now you are in a knowledge gathering learning phase, so that is a very small amount of cash for some good practical experience.

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#80106

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

Thanks Rob, I bought it. Agreed its a good way to get my feet wet. By my math, it should do 1 10" board per minute. Too fast for even my dream production setup. So I may become a huge fan if it works.

Not considering Nitrogen unless it doesnt work in my setup

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#80107

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

So I found an early model samsung sm320 for under $20k BUT it needs a new motor and has 15,000 hours (not sure what life of one of these is but hardly seen a Samsung with 20,000 hours).

The Juki 750 was highly recommended and its under $10k with feeders. Dos based. My bigger concern since I am only trying to do 2 boards on these is machine not going down and running without unnecessary operator intervention as much as possible (may be dreaming).

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#80108

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

There is no local support for Juki or Samsung in Chicago. If I pay $5000 Samsung will be able to monitor everything remotely.

I am still unsure of the life of a pick and place machine. I have seen some Universals get to 50,000. Not sure about Juki or Samsung. I am very impressed with Essemtec's tiny mineral cast frame but $70k is pretty steep and doesn't seem as fast as Samsung.

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dwl

#80114

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

I never thought I'd utter these words but, Have you considered Quad?

Quad went out of business around 2001 but the line was picked up by Tyco Automation and then by a company called Precision Placement Machines (PPM).

A Quad 4C with feeders should probably cost 15-20K from PPM and you will get excellent support and service. They are based in Pennsylvania but provide excellent (and free) support via phone and e-mail.

Quads are relatively simple, and bullet proof machines. Keep them calibrated and they will run all day every day with very little problem. They are slow and probably won't be able to meet your max volume but if you want to get your feet wet before diving in with something bigger, its an excellent choice.

I started in this industry supporting Quad machines, before upgrading to Fuji NXTs. Kinda like trading a VW Bug for a Ferrari.

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Rob

#80115

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

15000 hours is nothing we have Jukis and Assembleon/Yamaha's on 50K. What maters is how they are looked after. Ours are looked after very well.

Also, what does the programming software cost?

Regarding the Quad 4C, yes the support would be great,which would help you on the way, but it's very slow and not upscalable. However if you treat it as a learning machine that's fine.

If you went for the Opal Xii, SM320 or possibly the 750 you could upgrade your printer and oven for a few dollars and get real production out of them.

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#80116

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Juki-KE-760-SMT-PICK-AND-PLACE-MACHINE/282894334640?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Not sure if a Juki 760 is worth $7300 shipped with feeders, MTC, etc. I saw a video of it running and it looked really good. I really wanted the Samsung machine but I think its going to run $30k after getting support and fixing motor.

Other people bad mouthed Quad so I didn't consider it. People spoke highly of the Juki machines, especially the 760. It sounded like the flagship and certain people liked it more than the series that came after it.

What are the thoughts on a Juki 760? Thanks for any advice!

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Rob

#80118

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

I have 2 - one in an old line with 2 x 750's that we are waiting to swap out, and one spare. They are glacially slow, they are no longer supported (although we have good second user spares form China).

A 750 is much quicker.

If you know for a fact you can get local support for training, maintenance etc, then buy it as a training machine. If not, then walk away it is a false economy.

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#80119

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

The only real local support I am finding is for universal instruments. I have remote support.

What machines in the under $10k with feeders category for learning on do you recommend? Most likely leaning to upgrade to a used samsung machine in a year when i become fully compentent.

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dwl

#80120

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

one caveat to be aware of is the power requirements of many machines. Most 'industrial level' pick and place machines, as well as reflow ovens will require 3 phase power.

it sounds like you are trying to set this up in an office type environment. Do you have access to 3 phase power, or are you limited to "house hold" single phase 110/220 volt power?

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#80121

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

I have 3 phase power in my production area where I am running this machine. Technically the 110V was a wish as I have an empty office where I can put a number of machines but it doesn't seem like I would. So power is not an issue. I even have 480V but its in the middle of the warehouse with no heat.

More than anything I have heard previously that Quads are junk. I have also heard that about Universal GSM units (mixed bag). I want a very reliable, easy to work on machine be it whichever brand but something that makes it easy on a newbie and preferrably very cheap with decent speed ~8k cph

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dwl

#80122

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 28 March, 2018

Quad didn't go out of business because they made stellar machines, but if you are running the same board all day long, you can get it dialed in where it's repeatable and reliable. Spares aren't expensive (at least by comparison)and there are lots of support options out there. They are easy to work on and easy to learn.

I started in this industry out of college. I took a temporary job with a small EMS company. I had no knowledge whatsoever about electronics manufacturing. They pointed to the Quad, handed me the manual and told me to "make it work". The only reason I would advocate a Quad is that I know a novice can learn it and get their feet wet.

The downside to Quads, of course is that they are painfully slow. A 4C is rated at 3000 CPH but realistically you will achieve 1000-1500 CPH.

GSMs aren't junk either, but they are far more complicated machines and the cost of spare parts from Universal is insane. It does have the advantage of being another platform with lots of knowledgeable users. and there is better growth potential in that you can move onto used Advantis and Genesys machines with the lightning heads for a huge speed boost. Of course used, those machines will probably start at 50K+ (just guessing).

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#80137

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 1 April, 2018

Juki 760 seller threw in a zevatech reflow oven and panasonic Screen Printer SP28p-DH if I pay shipping. It's getting harder to walk away from this deal. He claims the units are in great condition with minimal use. What's the difference between a 760 and a 760L? I am not able to find online.

Only thing missing in this setup is a conveyor going from screen printer to juki machine. How do I find one that works in that setup? Is there a search term?

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dwl

#80144

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 2 April, 2018

Any half meter conveyor should work for you. Any SMT equipment broker should be able to help you fine one too. Shouldn't cost more than a few thousand dollars (US) tops.

Check with the seller of the package you are considering, I'd be surprised if he didn't have conveyors with his setup. Its pretty standard.

Ideally you would want a conveyor between each piece of equipment. It's not a necessity, it just makes life a lot easier (easier maintenance access, review problem boards between processes, etc.).

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#80145

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 2 April, 2018

Thanks. A few thousand used or new? My machines didnt run that much so I am trying to save on this. Seller sold his conveyor when he did his liquidation sale.

Is it required between a screen printer and a SMT machine or can they be put into one another?

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dwl

#80147

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 2 April, 2018

Price guess is for used from a dealer. if you hunt around, or watch auctions, you can probably find something cheaper.

A conveyor isn't needed, you can feed right from the printer to the P&P machine, however you will want to do some visual inspection on your first few prints to make sure your print is good. Without a conveyor in between, you'll have to do some finagling to grab the board before it goes into the P&P machine. Not a big deal, just a bit of a hassle.

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Rob

#80166

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 5 April, 2018

The L Version is slightly bigger PCB handling capability. However, it's relative to Juki, not to other manufacturers. We have found that the extra large board Juki's are similar to our standard Yamahas. Don't know about the 760, but the 2060L is 410x360.

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#80583

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 20 June, 2018

Which compact oven manufacturer makes a better product? Essemtec or DDM? The Essemtec units look the same as Manncorp. I have found 2 RO300FC's and a Novastar 1800. The 1800 looks like it hits a higher temperature but not sure if its needed to go over 300 C for unleaded solder in reflow. The Essemtec ovens are 3+1 zone and Novastar is 4+1 zone. The Essemtec oven is brand new.

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#80586

No such thing as a Compact Reflow Oven? | 21 June, 2018

I haven't used either of them but... The Essemtec distributors & their engineers over here do quite like the RO400 & 300 (typically not much to do on a service but clean them) and the places I am aware of that use them are happy enough with them too. They did experiment with selling some Chinese models but gave that up in short order, instead they made their complimentary range BTU @ thrice the price.

In the UK Manncorp ovens sell for something close the Heller MkIIIs (no idea if that holds true in the US) and seem reasonably well specified, I don't really think they resemble the DDM tho'.

The Essemtec oven can be specified with pin edge conveyor which could be useful to you, unlike some rivals it can't be both pin and mesh however.

More zones is always the recommendation you will get on here but it means an awful lot less on ovens this short than it does on bigger ones. I'm sure you'd find either perfectly adequate and reliable and if that's what you have available to you easily its as good a reason as any.

Personally I wouldn't choose either - I'd go a bit bigger, more zones, and pin mesh combo, but nobody has the same requirements. Both are definitely a better choice than the unheard Chinese brands which have a terrible reputation for things like blowers and heaters failing and the replacement taking an age to appear if ever (by contrast many popular makes warranty theirs for life or several years). There's an awful lot more in the 4 metre+ ovens than just length too, UPS, flux filtration, clever blower design, all sorts of logging for those who move into super fussy sectors, center support options, closed loop feedback, software that comes up with a profile for you.

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Flying Probe Probe Tester with AOI

Reflow Oven