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Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.

SMT LINE CHOICE

Views: 11982

Hello, My company is looking at building our own ... - Mar 17, 2018 by stephen  

After doing more research I have decided against Essemtec. S... - Mar 18, 2018 by stephen  

You've got (to my mind) 3 wholly different classes of machin... - Mar 18, 2018 by Spoiltforchoice  

Thanks so much for the reply. I had looked at Juki but must ... - Mar 18, 2018 by stephen  

> You've got (to my mind) 3 wholly different > class... - Mar 19, 2018 by stephen  

Fuji makes great machines, just depends on the local support... - Mar 20, 2018 by Robl  

We are doing 2D on the printer. I got what seems to be a gre... - Mar 21, 2018 by stephen  

Sounds like you are sorted then. Always liked Fuji kit, had ... - Mar 21, 2018 by Robl  

> Get them to > quote individual feeder and nozzle... - Mar 21, 2018 by Spoiltforchoice  

Yep, fortunately we have a very good supplier in China for n... - Mar 21, 2018 by Robl  

I know this isn't a choice from what I'm reading, but we use... - Mar 21, 2018 by tombstonesmt  

Yep, especially if they are the silicon domed type that mark... - Mar 21, 2018 by Robl  

We heard back from Ipulse/Yamaha today. I'll have the quote ... - Mar 21, 2018 by stephen  

Good luck, get them to throw in P-Tools as well. Not seen i... - Mar 22, 2018 by Robl  

well, we have narrowed it down to the 12 nozzle Yamaha S20, ... - Apr 09, 2018 by stephen  

Hi Stephen, All good machines. Regarding placement speed... - Apr 10, 2018 by Robl  

I must say so far the yamaha seems to fit the bill. Most of ... - Apr 10, 2018 by stephen  

Given your low component count, why are you considering the ... - Apr 10, 2018 by dwl  

Good call, and if you're looking at NXT, then this could be ... - Apr 11, 2018 by Robl  

You are probably right. The Aimex III handles a larger board... - Apr 11, 2018 by stephen  

might like to check the backup on Juki if you are in the UK.... - Apr 11, 2018 by SPECTRUM SMT  

Hello We're in the US. Thanks for the reply. ... - Apr 11, 2018 by stephen  

Juki is well supported in the US Stephen. When you get sorte... - Apr 12, 2018 by SPECTRUM SMT  

Hi...i am a new user here. As per my knowledge 20 inch wide ... - Apr 12, 2018 by CoraDias   via

So lots of quotes and research later we have eliminated a fe... - Apr 28, 2018 by stephen  

You can get to this website ... - Apr 28, 2018 by liuliying  

Well we have decided to go with the Panasonic NPM W2(WX at e... - May 14, 2018 by stephen  

Congrats. Can you share the rough cost for the 8 zone Helle... - May 14, 2018 by JimPat  

I'm hearing 46-48k. This one is not nitrogen. It does have t... - May 14, 2018 by stephen  

Good choice Stephen. May I suggest that you order as many ex... - May 15, 2018 by SPECTRUM SMT  


stephen

#79988

SMT LINE CHOICE | 17 March, 2018

Hello,

My company is looking at building our own led PCBs. We are looking for a complete line. So far we have looked into Europlacer with the pick and place being the IINEO+. We have also looked at Essemtec with the pick and place being the Puma. Prototyping is also needed as we do quite a bit of that as well. With the Essemtec the pick and place will be outfitted with a solder jet. The Europlacer will have an Archimedes screw type dispenser.We currently us about 1 million mid-power LEDs per month. The smallest size we would use would be a 2mmx2mm part and as large as 7mmx7mm. Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.

I like the versatility of the Puma but am afraid it will not hold up as well in a production environment. The IINEO+ seems to be a workhorse and has a great warranty. I did get Essemtec to offer a 5-year parts warranty. I am open to any manufacturer. We really want to stay south of 500k if possible.

Thanks for your input.

reply »


stephen

#79996

SMT LINE CHOICE | 18 March, 2018

After doing more research I have decided against Essemtec. Still liking the Europlacer iineo+. I also have been doing research on the Ipulse S20. I really want a minimum board width of 20". Fuji also has a nice looking system that will fit the bill the AIMEX III.

Any input would be appreciated.

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Spoiltforchoice

#79997

SMT LINE CHOICE | 18 March, 2018

You've got (to my mind) 3 wholly different classes of machine there.

Essemtec is upper entry level maker that is increasingly differentiating itself from the competing machines in its class by focusing on 3d assembly/dispensing options. The Puma also has linear motors, whereas historically Essemtec machines have used belts. Elsewhere you mostly find linear motors only on high end systems. I would't have any trouble with the idea of the Essemtec handle the workload but spares/service can be pricey and I'd wager that 5 years did not include the feeders.

Europlacer- the IIneo is all about flexibility it achieves this with the huge feeder count and a head that can handle just about anything. While quick enough for your specification, speed is not exactly something its known for... the new Atom systems handle that job.

Fuji - is the cream and they'll make you pay but for that but you buy into a brand with excellent reputation.

iPulse, they do really quite well in the UK from what I can see, you can have the dispense nozzle on the M as well the S. Nice well built machines, feeders can be a bit expensive if you go for the smart F3 ones but perhaps no more so than anyone elses.

I wouldn't let a printing feature seduce you too much for prototyping, while it seems such a cool idea it takes a lot of $200 stencils to cover the cost of adding and maintaining dispensing system.

20" wide boards will probably be your most limiting factor most large board variants increase the length they can handle and stop at 460mm wide. If you like IIneo you might also like the Mycronic My300.

This Juki also handles the size http://www.juki.co.jp/smt_e/introduce/products/ke3020va.html and should be a competetive option

reply »


stephen

#80000

SMT LINE CHOICE | 18 March, 2018

Thanks so much for the reply. I had looked at Juki but must have missed that model. I see what you are saying about the dispensing. I was looking at the Mycronic solder jet system the My700 I believe. I have watched a few videos detailing the pros and cons of screen printing vs jet printing. Seems as though screen printing will remain king for a few more years. The thing I like about the Europlacer is we can add a second head if we needed to increase speed. I will talk to my rep about the Atom 3/4 tomorrow.

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stephen

#80010

SMT LINE CHOICE | 19 March, 2018

> You've got (to my mind) 3 wholly different > classes of machine there. > > Essemtec is upper > entry level maker that is increasingly > differentiating itself from the competing > machines in its class by focusing on 3d > assembly/dispensing options. The Puma also has > linear motors, whereas historically Essemtec > machines have used belts. Elsewhere you mostly > find linear motors only on high end systems. I > would't have any trouble with the idea of the > Essemtec handle the workload but spares/service > can be pricey and I'd wager that 5 years did not > include the feeders. > > Europlacer- the IIneo is > all about flexibility it achieves this with the > huge feeder count and a head that can handle just > about anything. While quick enough for your > specification, speed is not exactly something its > known for... the new Atom systems handle that > job. > > Fuji - is the cream and they'll make you > pay but for that but you buy into a brand with > excellent reputation. > > iPulse, they do really > quite well in the UK from what I can see, you can > have the dispense nozzle on the M as well the S. > Nice well built machines, feeders can be a bit > expensive if you go for the smart F3 ones but > perhaps no more so than anyone elses. > > I > wouldn't let a printing feature seduce you too > much for prototyping, while it seems such a cool > idea it takes a lot of $200 stencils to cover the > cost of adding and maintaining dispensing > system. > > 20" wide boards will probably be your > most limiting factor most large board variants > increase the length they can handle and stop at > 460mm wide. If you like IIneo you might also like > the Mycronic My300. > > This Juki also handles the > size _a class=roll > href="http://www.juki.co.jp/smt_e/introduce/produc > ts/ke3020va.html" > target="_blank"_http://www.juki.co.jp/smt_e/introd > uce/products/ke3020va.html _/a_and should be a > competetive option

After further review, the Fuji Aimex III seems to really hit all the points I'm looking for. The price is surprisingly good and the speed with the 2 Gantry option seems to be slightly less than the Europlacer Atom 3 but faster than the IINEO II at a better price. With dual DYNAHEAD DX it seems it will handle just about any part I'll be working with and then some. Would you recommend the 2D inspection option on the printer? I've decided to give up on the solder paste dispensing for now.

Do you see any problem with the AIMEX III? Most of the parts we use actually work with the 12 nozzle head. Is the Fuji software intuitive?

Thanks again btw.

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Robl

#80018

SMT LINE CHOICE | 20 March, 2018

Fuji makes great machines, just depends on the local support

If you are not doing anything special I'd probably just go with the I-pulses as you'll get a lot more machine for your money, and have some left over for inline AOI/SPI or look at something like the YS24 from the Yamaha range - I-Pulse is just a Yamaha brand these days. Both can do big boards, which can be useful for lighting.

I'd go 2D if it's a good system, unless you are using an SPI - Power Leds need good paste coverage, and a good low void profile & paste as voiding has a direct correlation with working life.

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stephen

#80032

SMT LINE CHOICE | 21 March, 2018

We are doing 2D on the printer. I got what seems to be a great price on the AIMEX III. I haven't heard back from Yamaha and Juki has emailed but no call yet. Fuji has a service person 3 hrs south of our location so it doesn't seem extremely far. I will give Yamaha a call today.I was looking at the YS24 as well. Really like the AIMEX III with the Dynahead. He priced the dual gantry model which seems to have a decent speed.

Thank You for the reply!

reply »


Robl

#80033

SMT LINE CHOICE | 21 March, 2018

Sounds like you are sorted then. Always liked Fuji kit, had it in previous companies.

I'd also take a look at the software tools they are bundling in before signing, unless you have Valor, Unicam, Aegis or similar already to handle the programs, optimisation etc.

Get them to quote individual feeder and nozzle prices too so you know what you are committed to going forward.

reply »


Spoiltforchoice

#80035

SMT LINE CHOICE | 21 March, 2018

> Get them to > quote individual feeder and nozzle prices too so > you know what you are committed to going forward.

Amen to that, I took the phrase very affordable wrt essemtec nozzles and bits at face value until I came to want some more, and OMG do the Swiss gouge you for what is in their case a crusty plastic holder with a metal tip friction fitted in the end.

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Robl

#80036

SMT LINE CHOICE | 21 March, 2018

Yep, fortunately we have a very good supplier in China for nozzles and feeders, otherwise it wouldn't bear thinking about. Not seen anyone selling Essemtec feeders & nozzles in China, but I'll ask the Question tomorrow.

reply »


tombstonesmt

#80037

SMT LINE CHOICE | 21 March, 2018

I know this isn't a choice from what I'm reading, but we use to kill LED boards with an old Panasonic MSR. Our newer CM-602 and NPM could not beat the speed when you're talking about a max of 3 different part numbers; depending on binning.

My .02 .. make sure you get the correct nozzles and keep your feeders calibrated. LED's are the most difficult components to place and keep throw aways down.

reply »


Robl

#80038

SMT LINE CHOICE | 21 March, 2018

Yep, especially if they are the silicon domed type that mark easy. We gang pick LEDs on our Yamaha kit, getting 12 at a time per side, but we have the luxury and volume of having multiple reels of the same components.

reply »


stephen

#80041

SMT LINE CHOICE | 21 March, 2018

We heard back from Ipulse/Yamaha today. I'll have the quote back on the Ipulse M20 tomorrow. I'll keep you posted but the Ipulse seems to be much more cost effective. We are looking at the 12 head version.

You guys are great.... Thanks so much!

reply »


Robl

#80045

SMT LINE CHOICE | 22 March, 2018

Good luck, get them to throw in P-Tools as well. Not seen it running with 12 heads, but know a fair few people with M2's & M4's and they rate them.

reply »


stephen

#80196

SMT LINE CHOICE | 9 April, 2018

well, we have narrowed it down to the 12 nozzle Yamaha S20, the Fuji Aimex 3 and the Juki RS1. Waiting for the final quote from Fuji now. The Juki and Yamaha are within 10% of each other. It seems features and speed go to Yamaha between Juki and Yamaha. Fuji seems to be the best machine of the bunch but I'm sure the highest cost as well. Lead time on the Fuji seems troublesome though.

reply »


Robl

#80199

SMT LINE CHOICE | 10 April, 2018

Hi Stephen,

All good machines. Regarding placement speeds ignore what the manufacturers claim, it's utter crap. Start with the IPC9850 number (not perfect, but we have been known to hit it), but even better to make them demonstrate on one of your boards.

Also have a play with the programming and optimisation software. Personally I prefer Yamaha P-tools to Juki HLC/IFS, but I haven't used Fuji Software since early Flexa and MCS30 so can't comment on theirs.

reply »


stephen

#80201

SMT LINE CHOICE | 10 April, 2018

I must say so far the yamaha seems to fit the bill. Most of our products are low mix. Less than 6 different components per board. 90% are only 2 lol. So just looking at how the yamaha operates it seems gang picking the same part off 12 feeders seems optimum. Our boards are generally the same led with 1-4 connectors. Pretty simple really.

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dwl

#80211

SMT LINE CHOICE | 10 April, 2018

Given your low component count, why are you considering the Fuji AIMEX over a Fuji NXT? I don't know the specifics of your product, but in general, the AIMEX is geared more for high mix/high complexity jobs and the NXT is more for low complexity, high volume. If your just placing a few LEDs all day every day I'd think an NXT could do this faster and cheaper than an AIMEX.

reply »


Robl

#80214

SMT LINE CHOICE | 11 April, 2018

Good call, and if you're looking at NXT, then this could be worth investigating: https://www.equipmatching.com/used_equipment/2/221/392844.php

reply »


stephen

#80215

SMT LINE CHOICE | 11 April, 2018

You are probably right. The Aimex III handles a larger board was my biggest draw. I will check and make sure the NXT III comes in a dual gantry configuration.

Finally heard back from Juki after I basically told them if I didn't hear back they were out. Seems I fell through the cracks. They have a very attractive price on the RS-1. Its board width isn't quite big enough for my taste. It can do the longer boards with indexing.

reply »


SPECTRUM SMT

#80216

SMT LINE CHOICE | 11 April, 2018

might like to check the backup on Juki if you are in the UK. we can help with custom nozzles for most machines, especially if you are placing LEDs. Happy to give further impartial advice if you want to PM me

Ian Spectrum SMT

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stephen

#80225

SMT LINE CHOICE | 11 April, 2018

Hello We're in the US. Thanks for the reply.

reply »


SPECTRUM SMT

#80231

SMT LINE CHOICE | 12 April, 2018

Juki is well supported in the US Stephen. When you get sorted out then come to us for custom nozzles for LEDs. That is what we do!

Also OEM feeders and nozzles.We are based in the UK and also Phoneix AZ

Good Luck in your ew venture

IAn

reply »


CoraDias

#80241

SMT LINE CHOICE | 12 April, 2018

Hi...i am a new user here. As per my knowledge 20 inch wide boards will probably be your most limiting factor most large board variants increase the length they can handle and stop at 460mm wide.

This message was posted via the Electronics Forum @

reply »


stephen

#80331

SMT LINE CHOICE | 28 April, 2018

So lots of quotes and research later we have eliminated a few added a few to our choices lol. So it looks like we will be doing a decent volume now (due to our other board supplier letting us down as well). Roughly 4-5 million leds/connectors per month to start.(BTW we are the designers of the boards and end sellers as well so our margins aren't as tight as a contract manufacturer. So quality ease of use and reliability are at the top of the list cost is second. Our contract manufacturer who will be running our line for us only runs a 40 hr work week. So speed is a concern. We also don't want to be at capacity from the getgo. We've priced Panasonic NPM W2, Yamaha YSM20, Fuji Aimex 3, Juki RS-1 and the ASM SX..... I went and saw the ASM SX in person. Really impressed with it. I like the fact that each axis is linear motor. The IPC speeds they claim seem to be realistic and not reliant on gang pick of course. Also not sure but the leds we use are on 16mm feeders. Not sure how that affects the gang picking of the inline machines. Probably going to see Panasonic this week and maybe Fuji as well.

My order of best to worst thus far are

#1 ASM #2 Fuji #3 Panasonic #4 Yamaha #5 Juki....I have to wait on the wide board Juki until Fall. They have agreed to put in the RS-1 and swap them with full credit later on.

All machines but the RS-1 are dual gantries. The ASM SX will have a speed star and a multi star. The Fuji is dual Dyna-head. Not sure why he said not to have 1 Dyna-head and 1 H24? The Panasonic is the 16 nozzle and 12 nozzle and a 3 nozzle. The Yamaha is dual 10 nozzle.

Juki is the best-priced option followed by Yamaha. The top 4 are within the margin of error in my book.

Any suggestions is greatly appreciated.

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liuliying

#80332

SMT LINE CHOICE | 28 April, 2018

You can get to this website http://www.pcbindex.com

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stephen

#80403

SMT LINE CHOICE | 14 May, 2018

Well we have decided to go with the Panasonic NPM W2(WX at end of year)...... Really liking the Ekra screen printers. Looking at the Serio 4000 or X5 pro large. Any recommendations for boards 24x20+? Also looking at the btu 10 zone Air 125. Cycle time if our most popular board is 28 seconds. So the Hellar 1826 8 zone will just do the trick. The Btu seems to be more suited but costs about 30k more. Should be up and running by end of June..... Super excited and scared as well lol.

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JimPat

#80404

SMT LINE CHOICE | 14 May, 2018

Congrats. Can you share the rough cost for the 8 zone Heller? Is it nitrogen capable? I am also looking to upgrade and doing preliminary research into BUT, Vitronics, Ersa and Heller.

reply »


stephen

#80405

SMT LINE CHOICE | 14 May, 2018

I'm hearing 46-48k. This one is not nitrogen. It does have the bottom cooling option.

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SPECTRUM SMT

#80408

SMT LINE CHOICE | 15 May, 2018

Good choice Stephen. May I suggest that you order as many extra feeders that you can as they will give you the best deal when you order with a machine. After that we can supply you with OEM feeders and nozzles at extremely competitive prices.

Good luck!

Ian

SPECTRUM SMT

reply »

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