Hi all, I wonder if some of you have experience in use of dross eliminator as a Kester 5744 or maybe with MS2 Molten Solder Sulfactant. I would like to know if they give good results in process and pot cleaning.
We use 5744 with good results. It remains solid (granular) and is more of a metal reclaimer than dross eliminator. You put it on the dross surface on your pot and it converts the tin oxide back into metal which is released into the pot. The remaining dross is granular and "dirt-like" and is easily scooped off of the surface. You will lose some value in recycling that dross...there's a lot less metal in it.
Can't say anything about MS2 except that it's a liquid that remains on your pot during processing, is supposed to reduce oxidation (so dross never forms), has had mixed reviews here and that it is a "mysterious" entity at best.
Be careful and review the MSDS sheets on any dross inhibitor reducer etc. Most are extremely hazardous. We offer a product that is not hazardous it melts at pot temp. forms an oily substrate, removes the good solder from the dross. Also can be used as a blanket over the pot to reduce dross formation. Steve@waveroomplus.com
What is the name of the dross eliminator you are referring to? Who is the manufacturer? I went to your website and didn't see anything about it? I just ordered some MS2 from P. Kay Metal as I've been hearing some very good things about it from longtime friends in the industry. One of my friends reduced his lead free solder purchases 80% and says he has absolutely no dross when using MS2. He did some cross sections before implementing and saw better hole fill as well. With the cost and difficulty's of Lead Free this is very appealing.
I would be interested to see what Dross eliminators are available also.
I am currently trialing a very user friendly Solder Saver Handtool- it basically churns the Dross Solder until the dross is left in Powder form. We then scoop out the powder. e are having excellent results so far . I looked at the MS2 Video clip and it all looks very messy and time consuming ?maybe someone can share their experiences with this ?
Hello all, just wanted to say that I've been using MS2 for 2 months now. Yes, it does eliminate dross. Yes, it is a little messy. However, we've seen a significant drop in our DPMO's on both leaded and lead free process. The solder is so much cleaner. I guess that's why they call it a surfactant! This material actually locks up the oxide and the solder is so clean you can see your reflection in it. I've reduced my waste by 87% which is important to my corporate and reduced solder purchases 65% which also makes corporate happy. I highly recommend it but make sure your maintenance people clearly understand how to use it.
I paid $168/ liter for the leaded on my recent order of 24 liters. They claim each liter converts 100 lbs of dross and we've seen that to be pretty accurate. So 1 liter @ $168 or 100 lbs of solder for $400. I liked the fact that you start to save with the first bottle you buy. If your company is after you to keep your waste numbers down. I haven't found anything that even comes close.
You can contact Graphic Research and Brad Koor will tell you that his maintenance is actually less. He has been running MS2 for a year and a half (he was the first production beta). His people know how to maintain the process which is not hard but must be done correctly. It can be a little messy if the process is not maintained but when run properly the results are amazing. The material is not hazardous, look at the videos and MSDS forms on the P. KAY web site ( http://www.pkaymetal.com ) . The reduction of DPMO stats and the reduction of solder usage has been verified by a number of companies with the first big user, Scientific Atlanta, proving the stats through months of statistically valid testing. I am obviously very pro MS2 but I would not have been this dedicated to any project at this point in my career if I was not totally convinced of the high value and safety of that product. Dan (Baer) Feinberg
We've just conducted an MS2 study, and we found very little improvement. We run N2 inerted contour waves (E-vert). It seems that if you use N2 and a dross reclaim agent (Kleenox) then you may not see as much improvement. What types of waves are you guys running? Did you have to remove the N2 inerters? Thanks John
Hello everybody, My name is Jay Hardin and I'm the MS2 Applications Manager for P. Kay Metal. I was just informed of this thread and will post my 2 cents when needed. I'm the guy who goes out in the field and makes sure MS2 is installed properly and help with training of the employees. John, in response to your e-mail. The contour type nozzles are the most difficult to work with. They were designed to work only with Nitrogen and are very difficult to solder without Nitrogen. This is why they are no longer produced and Electrovert now sells their nitrogen systems in their Ultra Fill design. We are not claiming that MS2 gives Nitrogen quality soldering. However, we have several customers that have stopped using Nitrogen and are now using MS2 due to the high cost of Nitrogen. Besides, with Nitrogen you still generate some dross. We see a significant drop in DPMO's with customers using a standard air type (non-N2) systems. Anyone is free to contact me for more information or questions if you like. My e-mail is firstname.lastname@example.org.
Pulsar Solder Saver: "The Solder Saver is a unique, handheld tool that scoops dross directly from the surface of the solder wave pot. The dross oxides are instantly separated from the solder using a unique high-speed rotary process system. The newly separated solder flows back into the pot whilst the oxide powder is deposited on the solder surface, for easy collection and removal. [Pulsar Solder Saver +44 (0) 1 383 824 823]"
Dear Sir, We produce solder dross reducing Powder and wave oil in India.The powder that really helps (80%) to reclaim good solder from dross and the oil will act as a blanket on top of the molten solder.contact for details email@example.com
with regards Biju Thomas
Just reading these comments are really interesting but very baffling. That if the solder manufacturers produces solder which 'is' actually Virgin high quality material and treated with conventional metallic anti drossing agents AND continue to add these once the Lead Free Solder goes a yellowy gold colour the dross should be considerably less typically 50% less than with conventional 63/37. In my experiance most 'other' Lead Free solders go yellowy/Gold immediately they are filled in the machines, this metal does not have any treatments added and will dross like mad and inhibit the true flow characteristics of the solder reducing hole fill and increasing solder bridging.
Do any other users get told to add mettalic anti drossing agents to their Lead Free solder waves? The cost of this approximately $20.00 per 1Kg and this is sufficient to treat 150Kg of metal for six weeks typically running eight hour day shifts. It does not corrode or contaminate PCB's or pots. Hope it helps Cheers Greg York England
Greg, can you share what is this metallic anti drossing agent that you are refering to ?? If the cost of $20 per 1 kg, then its worth looking into. How much less typically is the dross ?? Thanks for the help.
For some reason I'm not getting the Email notifications so appologies never saw the reply. The mettalic antidrossing agent reduces the dross to levels of est. 50% less than compared to 63/37 alloy. When used with SACP/0307 alloy and SACP/387 We call it Tin/P regenerator, we as in BLT Circuit Services Ltd Cheers Greg